So you have Meth Injection.. Are your pistons also cracked??
LOL setting expectations lol i Have no e85 unless i drive 7hours to JMS racing has a walmart that has it lol. how about that and you complain about 30 miles lol try 550 miles. LOL. 93 oct is good enough i have a number in my head and i have done everything on my build to ensure i hit my 500+ mark on pump. if i want the thrill of the chase then ill run race gas for a tank. as green meanie stated the cheap power meth gives you and risk involved might as well just get a bigger turbo. Ill take mikes opinion or advice over any member here as he has never lead me or others down a dark path. He has many records to prove he knows this ****.
Its all in the setup of any injection system thats going to make or break it.
I have seen many poor setups, and a lot has to do with the kit. Meth by itself is very corrosive and hard on many parts. Ethanol not as bad but it still "can" be bad in long term sense. Thats why 50/50 should be used.
For the motor in this case I would be willing to say it wasnt a distribution as much as a meth/ beaten motor. A tune "could" be 50% responsible but thats hard to say as well. Where was jet placement? what size jet? How much boost?
One way to insure distribution isn't a issue is like so below. Being that this sees injection by duty cycle and boost I doubt response is an issue. This setup runs 100% H20.
Been doing so for a year!
Here are the plugs after 3 weeks and 2 road race events.
I think there are a lot of variables to point fingers at, and to blame a whole theory/method of power extraction (Any form of injection) is not entirely fair. Thats like saying Nitrous fails on all motors and shouldn't be run. Yet some of the fastest cars in the world never have issues with their nitrous.
This is a perfect example of a poorly setup meth kit. I have a right to say this as I have personally installed/tuned over 50 injection kits with a big 0 failures in the last 7 years.
I wish the owner luck in the rebuild I know Mike that you will help get him going faster and safer next time!
Respectfully,
Evan Smith
I have seen many poor setups, and a lot has to do with the kit. Meth by itself is very corrosive and hard on many parts. Ethanol not as bad but it still "can" be bad in long term sense. Thats why 50/50 should be used.
For the motor in this case I would be willing to say it wasnt a distribution as much as a meth/ beaten motor. A tune "could" be 50% responsible but thats hard to say as well. Where was jet placement? what size jet? How much boost?
One way to insure distribution isn't a issue is like so below. Being that this sees injection by duty cycle and boost I doubt response is an issue. This setup runs 100% H20.
Been doing so for a year!Here are the plugs after 3 weeks and 2 road race events.
I think there are a lot of variables to point fingers at, and to blame a whole theory/method of power extraction (Any form of injection) is not entirely fair. Thats like saying Nitrous fails on all motors and shouldn't be run. Yet some of the fastest cars in the world never have issues with their nitrous.
This is a perfect example of a poorly setup meth kit. I have a right to say this as I have personally installed/tuned over 50 injection kits with a big 0 failures in the last 7 years.
I wish the owner luck in the rebuild I know Mike that you will help get him going faster and safer next time!
Respectfully,
Evan Smith
For the guys that have chimed in and said they have been running meth for a long time with no issues,...........you are the 10% Mike is referring to. Fact of the matter is doesn't MATTER how someone was driving their car at point of failure. You hear way more cars going kaboom with meth then with E85.
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You have a reputable shop sharing knowledge not based on opinion but based on FACT in his experience (IE what he sees running through his successful shop) and he is sharing that.
I'll take AWD and ER talking about their sucesses based on experience then a few people saying they've had no issues (compared to the threads talking about meth failing on their car) anyday.
...
...
You have a reputable shop sharing knowledge not based on opinion but based on FACT in his experience (IE what he sees running through his successful shop) and he is sharing that.
I'll take AWD and ER talking about their sucesses based on experience then a few people saying they've had no issues (compared to the threads talking about meth failing on their car) anyday.
...
That said, I do know that even with failsafes I am running a higher risk, and as you suggested, if ethanol was a viable option I'd utilize it (hopefully soon!). I don't think anyone ever suggested that ethanol causing failures is in the same ballpark as meth causing failures. Not even the same sport.
As for my motor failure that I eluded to (stacked a bearing), it could have been caused by meth, though I haven't heard that from ER yet. I would be interested to know how the internals look, though. Before this thread existed I was thinking of removing that extra point of failure since I can't stand driving my truck for this long!
Here is once again another case of Meth Injection FTL.. Its funny how its ALMOST ALWAYS Cyl#1 thats cracked Which is the last cylinder to get Meth.. I have said it before and ill say it again there is NO WAY for each Cylinder to receive an equal amount of meth with a nozzle in the UICP..
Look at the Carbon Buildup and see its been cracked for Quite some time and the customer had no idea.. Finally while we were tuning it the ring cracked..
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Pictures omitted
Look at the Carbon Buildup and see its been cracked for Quite some time and the customer had no idea.. Finally while we were tuning it the ring cracked..
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Pictures omitted
I have been directed to this thread by a number of WMI users. I would be most grateful if you can tell me what systems were installed on those 20 cars with blown engines.
I don't mind if you name us (aquamist), it will be helpful for us to investigate the cause of failure in greater details.
A sweeping statement made on "all" meth systems may cause failure can only be justified with finer details. I woidl be grateful to any response.
Richard
aquamist engineer
I've had a meth kit on every turbo car I've owned for 10 years. In the early days I had nothing but a disco narrowband and DSMLink knock to tell me if there was a problem.
I've never had a problem. I've run home brew kits, snow performance, and I've had two SMC kits. Again no problems.
I think the biggest issue with meth is the person (OR SHOP) tuning for bleeding edge dyno performance. As mentioned in this thread it was never intended to be an extra injector. It should be used as a chemical intercooler. Tune the car to bleeding edge performance on 93 octane then add a modest amount of meth and you wont have to worry about leaning out.
I've seen craploads of threads on here where people are injecting huge amounts of meth, leaning out to 12:1, and cranking the boost. That is asking for trouble.
As for E85.... there are plenty of issues with that too. People spewing black gunk into the motor, spraying so much fuel that they are bore washing the motor, and who knows what that crap is doing to the fuel system.
There is a risk in everything.... Cranking the boost to 25psi on pump gas is probably just as risky.... only takes one bad tank of fuel or heat soaking to cause bad things to happen.
I've never had a problem. I've run home brew kits, snow performance, and I've had two SMC kits. Again no problems.
I think the biggest issue with meth is the person (OR SHOP) tuning for bleeding edge dyno performance. As mentioned in this thread it was never intended to be an extra injector. It should be used as a chemical intercooler. Tune the car to bleeding edge performance on 93 octane then add a modest amount of meth and you wont have to worry about leaning out.
I've seen craploads of threads on here where people are injecting huge amounts of meth, leaning out to 12:1, and cranking the boost. That is asking for trouble.
As for E85.... there are plenty of issues with that too. People spewing black gunk into the motor, spraying so much fuel that they are bore washing the motor, and who knows what that crap is doing to the fuel system.
There is a risk in everything.... Cranking the boost to 25psi on pump gas is probably just as risky.... only takes one bad tank of fuel or heat soaking to cause bad things to happen.
I have been directed to this thread by a number of WMI users. I would be most grateful if you can tell me what systems were installed on those 20 cars with blown engines.
I don't mind if you name us (aquamist), it will be helpful for us to investigate the cause of failure in greater details.
A sweeping statement made on "all" meth systems may cause failure can only be justified with finer details. I woidl be grateful to any response.
Richard
aquamist engineer
I don't mind if you name us (aquamist), it will be helpful for us to investigate the cause of failure in greater details.
A sweeping statement made on "all" meth systems may cause failure can only be justified with finer details. I woidl be grateful to any response.
Richard
aquamist engineer
Most of the failures we see are using a brand that do not have a failsafe. This is very broad and doesnt include the Aquamist. We add a failsafe to the system (any system without one from the manufacturer) when we do meth installs to make sure that we are making it as safe as possible. A pressure switch that kicks to WG if pump pressure is insufficient.
For the most part the Aquamist kit users around us are only using the 1.0mm jet and if it were to fail the AFR and timing is generally still pumpgas figures, the boost will be the only thing that is high. I have some failsafes for that contingency as part of the tune.
This all being said it seems when individuals get "greedy" and want more power with bigger jets or multiple jets and a pump failure occurs (the most common issue) the window of saving the motor is far reduced if not completely removed. an M5 or 1.0mm jet is about as big as I personally like to see and only to make an existing pumpgas (leave it rich, pump boost and timing) tune 100% knockfree in all enviroments. That never seems to be how the owner wants to proceed however.
Aaron
I've had a meth kit on every turbo car I've owned for 10 years. In the early days I had nothing but a disco narrowband and DSMLink knock to tell me if there was a problem.
I've never had a problem. I've run home brew kits, snow performance, and I've had two SMC kits. Again no problems.
I think the biggest issue with meth is the person (OR SHOP) tuning for bleeding edge dyno performance. As mentioned in this thread it was never intended to be an extra injector. It should be used as a chemical intercooler. Tune the car to bleeding edge performance on 93 octane then add a modest amount of meth and you wont have to worry about leaning out.
I've seen craploads of threads on here where people are injecting huge amounts of meth, leaning out to 12:1, and cranking the boost. That is asking for trouble.
As for E85.... there are plenty of issues with that too. People spewing black gunk into the motor, spraying so much fuel that they are bore washing the motor, and who knows what that crap is doing to the fuel system.
There is a risk in everything.... Cranking the boost to 25psi on pump gas is probably just as risky.... only takes one bad tank of fuel or heat soaking to cause bad things to happen.
I've never had a problem. I've run home brew kits, snow performance, and I've had two SMC kits. Again no problems.
I think the biggest issue with meth is the person (OR SHOP) tuning for bleeding edge dyno performance. As mentioned in this thread it was never intended to be an extra injector. It should be used as a chemical intercooler. Tune the car to bleeding edge performance on 93 octane then add a modest amount of meth and you wont have to worry about leaning out.
I've seen craploads of threads on here where people are injecting huge amounts of meth, leaning out to 12:1, and cranking the boost. That is asking for trouble.
As for E85.... there are plenty of issues with that too. People spewing black gunk into the motor, spraying so much fuel that they are bore washing the motor, and who knows what that crap is doing to the fuel system.
There is a risk in everything.... Cranking the boost to 25psi on pump gas is probably just as risky.... only takes one bad tank of fuel or heat soaking to cause bad things to happen.
1. A good portion of system install is less than ideal, compared to factory FI.
2. Source of of water used contains excessive minerals (long term reliability)
3. Placement of jet (uneven distribution may result)
4. System without adequate failsafe, a water tank level sensor is not good enough.
5. Tuning program exceeds/goes beyond the capability of the system. It is not ideal to tune a boost-based system aggressively without RPM reference.
6. Maintenance and system check is not often strictly followed.
The main problem is people are buying into the marketing hypes and magazine article without looking into what they are buying into. Meth/water injection is a great power adder with reliability if people take more care in studying the system rather the price tag.
I agree E85 has it own set of problems like all other aftermarket modifications. If only the car manufacturers offer a tuning program... that will be a nice solution.
...This all being said it seems when individuals get "greedy" and want more power with bigger jets or multiple jets and a pump failure occurs (the most common issue) the window of saving the motor is far reduced if not completely removed. an M5 or 1.0mm jet is about as big as I personally like to see and only to make an existing pumpgas (leave it rich, pump boost and timing) tune 100% knockfree in all enviroments. That never seems to be how the owner wants to proceed however.
Aaron
Aaron
Aaron has always said to keep the jet small (even though I've asked him a few times to go bigger).
There are few other conditions where meth can also cause engine failures. I list a few.
1. A good portion of system install is less than ideal, compared to factory FI.
2. Source of of water used contains excessive minerals (long term reliability)
3. Placement of jet (uneven distribution may result)
4. System without adequate failsafe, a water tank level sensor is not good enough.
5. Tuning program exceeds/goes beyond the capability of the system. It is not ideal to tune a boost-based system aggressively without RPM reference.
6. Maintenance and system check is not often strictly followed.
The main problem is people are buying into the marketing hypes and magazine article without looking into what they are buying into. Meth/water injection is a great power adder with reliability if people take more care in studying the system rather the price tag.
I agree E85 has it own set of problems like all other aftermarket modifications. If only the car manufacturers offer a tuning program... that will be a nice solution.
1. A good portion of system install is less than ideal, compared to factory FI.
2. Source of of water used contains excessive minerals (long term reliability)
3. Placement of jet (uneven distribution may result)
4. System without adequate failsafe, a water tank level sensor is not good enough.
5. Tuning program exceeds/goes beyond the capability of the system. It is not ideal to tune a boost-based system aggressively without RPM reference.
6. Maintenance and system check is not often strictly followed.
The main problem is people are buying into the marketing hypes and magazine article without looking into what they are buying into. Meth/water injection is a great power adder with reliability if people take more care in studying the system rather the price tag.
I agree E85 has it own set of problems like all other aftermarket modifications. If only the car manufacturers offer a tuning program... that will be a nice solution.
Interestingly enough we are certain that many blown engines (referring to Mitsubishi and also other boosted engines abroad) have used methanol injection as the scapegoat of many engine failures even when it was NOT the cause of destruction, moreso an easy, visable target to place the blame when the true cause could not be established with 100% certainty.
