discopotato03

Aaron is it possible to check the differences between the car M1 15W50 and the bike M1 Racing 4T 15W50 please .

People here in Oz use in in old Nissan L Series Rally engines with big square cam lobes and high valve spring rates . The point loads of the lobes wiping across the rockers pads must be really high but the old Ls seem to survive with this oil .

I'll ask a friend who's been around high performance bike engines over lots of years about the Zinc thing .
I'll also check Mobil1s Racing 4T oil range because I think there is also a 20 or 25W50 for big V Twin earth moving equipment - Harleys ...

Cheers A .

discopotato03

This is a link to Mobils own blurb on their synthetic bike oils and they mention higher levels of Phosphorus and Zinc in their M1 4T Racing bike oils than the car versions in similar viscosities .
The Mobil 1 Racing 4T 20W50 gets a mention and have a read about the high temp stability they claim this version has .
Also note the claimed differences in the car oil versions is suposed to be a consumption and emissions thing .
My call is that my engines survival has my highest priority .

Thoughts ? Cheers Adrian in Oz .

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...AQs.aspx#FAQs1

And another covering all three types of M1 Racing 4T oils .

http://www.mobil.com/Australia-Engli..._Racing_4T.asp

evilempire76

iTrader: (42)

I started running Rotella T6 10w-40 after someone recommended it to me. I've noticed less ticking and less consumption. I wanted something that I would be able to buy off the shelf. I too thought that 20w50 might be a bit to thick, especially during winter. I found a lot of good info on here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

apagan01

iTrader: (299)

so after i help you with a million questions over 2 days ,,, this is how you treat me,,, i see how it is

CBRE

iTrader: (77)

Runnimg Mobil 1 in any weight always caused oil pump failure in my DSM drag cars, had good luck with Brad Penn 20w50 but the best luck with Amsoil Dominater 10w30, my 94 would see 10,000 rpm in first or second gear alot and 9500+ through fourth along with alot of street miles and the bearings and oil pump always looked like new, Mobil 1 on the other hand caused the oil pump shaft to weld itself to the pump case, wouldn't run it in my lawn mower now.

apagan01

iTrader: (299)

Aron i did notice you were somewhat opinionated in your post,,,

not many people in here track ***** their cars, therfore zinc and phos is not the only package additive they must have in theor oils, these guys need a good balance between a good detergent package to keep their internals clean and a good separator of metal to metal package hence zinc and phos,,,, and i really havent seen many oils out there that combine a good balance of high shear streght oil, ability to reduce friction, ability to reduce heat, and ability to keep internals clean.
many oils out there are cracked oil meaning there is tons of inpurified wax crystals and other stuff that does nothing for the reliability of your engine,,, CAN WE CALL THEM FILLERS ! but then they still sell them for the pricing of premium synthetics.

there is only a hand full of them and we can mention but lets keep them disclosed for know,,,,, RULE OF THUMB, there are 5 oil grades or in other words there are 5 oil base stock flavors, 3 of them are your dyno oils like valvoline ect... and 2 of them are synthetics ( PAO being the best synthetics and a cracked synthetic mostly used by Mobil and that is why mobil is in trouble for using the bottom of the pit in synthetics, its cost effective for a mass production oil company to use )

so when you choose your synthetic make sure you choose an oil that is PAO Easter based,,, this has told you you have purchased a good synthetic, and they are ususally pennys more than the less reliable synthetics.


Aron-
Thicker oil hence spike in oil presure, and harder to get into the critical areas of the engine, areas like lifters, and small cracks and cranices of the internals.
Thinner oil hence lower oil pressure, i do know you will see drop in pressure if any of the passages in the bearings start wearing, in other words the areas where the oil is passing through has increased because of wear.



good topic, i think we agree that thicker oils have their place and thinner oils have theirs,,,, 10W40 is also a good choice because of its ability to flow cold as a 10 and lubricity established as a 40

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

ALL contemporary oils that carry the SM specification contain reduced ZDDP. Mobil 1 10w-30 is one such oil. This does not apply to all grades within any single brand, nor does it really affect 99% of cars on the road (including factory spec EVOs).

Avoiding oil-related issues means choosing an oil with the desired properties. This can be distilled down to three major criteria:


1) Choose an appropriate viscosity
Factory fills are chosen to satisfy longevity requirements while delivering best fuel economy, which I interpret as the lowest acceptable viscosity. If you're going to take it out and beat on it, I recommend moving from 20-30 to 40-50 respectively.


2) Choose an appropriate additive package
Best possible engine life depends upon an appropriate additive package. IMO, that means ~1200ppm ZDDP with sufficient detergents and pH stabilizers. Don't be dazzled by terms such as 'racing oil', which may not contain the additives that your engine needs. Racing engines get oil changes after every race and are rebuilt every few thousand (or less) miles. Your street engine has different needs, unless of course you're planning on frequent rebuilds.


3) Synthetic is superior
Conventional oils bring only disadvantages to the picture, and no advantages other than being cheap. Synthetics possess superior thermal stability, better resistance to chemical attack, better shear stability, etc. A better synthetic can be run for 10k miles or more with proper filtration. As for the functional difference between Group III and IV synthetics, IV has a superior cold pour point, which means if you live in a climate that gets ***-biting cold, a boutique Group IV oil is your best choice.


There is really little mystery in this. It's governed by chemistry, not black magic. And I'll venture to say that 8 out of 10 oil related failures are the fault of the user, not the oil, even if it's as simple as choosing the wrong viscosity.

4doorstreetbike

Lol..I know you were gonna chime in on this thread that's why I posted that comment.as far as my questions go you made me switch oils and I'm very stubborn ..

apagan01

iTrader: (299)

i can smell a picky stubborn person from miles specially when he pms me all day for 2 days in a row with 99 questions

sir-
if you ever do any UOA on the ASMOIL 10W40 you are running now please then share with us.

cij911

iTrader: (14)

I can't believe it is so hard to get Amsoil in Socal .... Maybe I'll have to become a distributor ...

apagan01

iTrader: (299)

its not

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Adrian,

I am not sure on the Mobil bike oil, but I am more than happy to read into it.

Vinh,

I havent ever run anything other than 20-50. I know/knew that this would be debated and that 10-60 would come up. I think 15-50 is the lightest I would go, but based on pressure drop on launch (I would assume similar things will happen in hard cornering) we are talk SUBSTANTIAL reduction in pressure. Reduction on the level we log is going to lead to aeration which is going to cause bearing failures in turbos first then the engine.

Ted,

I agree that user error is going to be the cause 80% of the time, but as many issues as we have recently seen I cant help but stick to my guns and say oil viscosity is the issue.

A,

Unless the car is being driven in sub zero weather the difference in cold start up between a 10w and 20w is minimal I think. This is more about the overall picture and how most 20-50s respond to both oil temps and believe it or not water temps.

General-

I start all dyno pulls at the same exact temp regardless of car or application, 172* F. The main reason I started this is its about 10* less than normal operating temp and on a dyno with limited airflow a little cooler seems to work better in the long run. This allows me to do a couple things as I am logging, I can see the end temp and judge the actual coolant, I let the car sit for 5 min and start and can see how much heat got rejected in that span and make another pull.

It keeps all my data consistent as far the internal conditions of an engine (4G63, Subaru, Honda, Toyota, etc.). On average an Evo will start a pull at 172 and finish at 186 using 20-50. A car running 10-30 or 10-40 will start at 172 and finish at 194. One thing I found in my car is running straight 30w the temp wouldnt increase much. At 590whp it would start at 172 and end at....wait for it...172. This puzzled me greatly and I thought maybe it was a 4G64 thing. At 750whp the final temp is 182*. I switched back to 20-50 and saw that the temps were a little higher at 590, 175.6*, when the pull was over. Switched to 10-30 and saw what I expected, final temp was higher at 190 (didnt foresee that much, just assumed it would be more).

It doesnt tell me specifically brand to brand info, but at least Valvoline doesnt work well thin. I would suspect most other oils are going to be the same. I do know that some are going to be better, some might be worse. I stopped using straight 30w after reading some posts on another board about bearing issues using thicker oil. If water temps go up that much its friction, so oil temps would follow. If the oil is hotter its not working as well.

We use stub shafts in our balance shaft deletes and not the turned down shaft. With 20-50 we have seen ZERO problems in all the street cars we have done and our 2 racecars. I know this is not the case for most people and can only presume its related to oil choice. In the Eclipse we are currently running Royal Purple 20-50 XPR race oil. 15-16 a quart is pretty spendy especially at the rate we use it. As crew, and based on some other cars running the Brad Penn, we are going to go to the Brad Penn 20-50 semi syn for the time being (also only 5 a quart) and see what we get.

discopotato03

Look I'm really interested in this "Zinc and Phosphorus in engine oil" and was going to put up a few links but if you do a google search on it theres a lot of reading to do .

I asked my long term mechanic friend last night about it and he said that oil formulations are changing to match standards for politically correct emissions reasons . The above mentioned compounds are said to be able to poison catalytic converters over time and reducing them is the green way to go .

He also mentioned that generally new cars are not owned for long periods of time/long mileages and by the time they pass through several owners and the warranty distance the manufacturer is fairly safe from wear claims .

You will notice that camshaft lobes and either buckets/followers/rockers get the attention because they are the areas most likely to be damaged if the oil film isn't up to the task .
I'm not sure but its possible that a plain bearing turbocharger that's doing double duty may suffer thrust collar and plate wear if the thrust loads are really high for the available bearing area .
I don't want to get too far off the track but I reckon turbochargers that have a lot higher turbine inlet pressure than boost pressure are more likely to have excessive thrust loadings but that's just my opinion .

Another thing my friend mentioned is that a lot of these expensive exotic synthetic oils such as Motul 300V are actually bike engine oils which I should have picked up on given the bottle sizes its sold in .

Anyway he said these high performance or race type bike oils get a hard life in the sorts of valve trains they normally have I suppose because of the engine revs they turn and at times the uneven temperatures the air cooled ones run at .
I have a mild interest in the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 oil because I believed its aimed at how shall we say not particularly high tech Harley engines and the ah rather basic valve trains they have used over the years .

If you do the above mentioned search note the Penrite one which has a table of their range and lists the I think Zinc levels in parts per million (PPM) . The levels actually look really high in some of their break in oils and the really wide rated oils such as 20W70 and the like .

All I can tell you is that I run the M1 Racing 4T 15w50 in my Evo 6 and the Skyline and the old Subaru L RX Turbo and none of them complain .
The 4G has the typical pivot rattle when cold that goes away when warmed up but comes in and out at hot idle .

I guess the things to research are which oils are group 3 or 4 and have healthy Zinc/Phosphorus content .

Cheers Adrian .

RSMike

iTrader: (1)

Good topic JB.
My understanding with evo's running a "thin" oil from factory is because of the very tight bearing clearances too. 0.02 - 0.04mm for mains, and 0.03-0.05mm for big ends.
With that being said, and your preferred oil being 20w-50, can i ask what bearing clearances you are running?

I'm running 0.06mm on mains, and 0.05mm on big ends. I was going to run 15w50 Motul 300V oil (good additives package), but i'm looking at running 10w-40 now (same brand oil).

One other thing to remember (and i'm sure you know) is that with a thinner oil, you get increased oil flow over the surface of the bearing, effectively cooling the bearing surface better. But at what cost? possibly less oil pressure (for that surface)

Cheers, Mike

Fast_Freddie

iTrader: (50)

So there has yet to be an answer to the question.... If you are still on stock internals what is the best viscosity oil to run? From the posts I have seen tend to steer people with stock internals away from running a thicker 20-50 oil due to bearing tolerances. I would like to get a no BS answer on this...