New BW EFR Turbo Thread
Jun 29, 2015, 09:03 AM
#3046
Imagine if there was a cast inconel T4 twinscroll manifold that allowed you to bolt up Garrett and EFR turbos. Make it fit the stock heat shield to boot.
Like the love child of the FP and APR manifolds
http://www.goapr.com/media/photos/72...2974/Original/
http://www.forcedperformance.net/PROD/EMFPEvo9.html
I think it would sell like hotcakes.
Jun 30, 2015, 09:57 AM
#3047
Tubular manifolds can be expensive, are arguably less durable than cast, and are usually turbo specific.
Imagine if there was a cast inconel T4 twinscroll manifold that allowed you to bolt up Garrett and EFR turbos. Make it fit the stock heat shield to boot.
Like the love child of the FP and APR manifolds
http://www.goapr.com/media/photos/72...2974/Original/
http://www.forcedperformance.net/PROD/EMFPEvo9.html
I think it would sell like hotcakes.
Imagine if there was a cast inconel T4 twinscroll manifold that allowed you to bolt up Garrett and EFR turbos. Make it fit the stock heat shield to boot.
Like the love child of the FP and APR manifolds
http://www.goapr.com/media/photos/72...2974/Original/
http://www.forcedperformance.net/PROD/EMFPEvo9.html
I think it would sell like hotcakes.
for CBRD- we have always been about producing a handmade piece- and putting the most attention to detail we can-
We have only ever had 2 manifolds break I am aware of- we have seen alot more cracked/broken cast manifolds- but they were NOT high nik/inconel content etc- they were mainly OEM Stuff-
I am still not a huge TS advocate on anything out of a stock frame turbo- but that is my opinion- based on our years of testing etc- but that doesnt mean it doesnt have its fit!
cb
Jun 30, 2015, 10:18 PM
#3048
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if someone sends me a car for our kit with a built block ill be sure to let you know-
we are installing one car with the evo 8/9 kit next week- its basically our LMP kit but with pipe not tube- so its more robust long term for non motorsport applications-
we will be running a 6758 and 7163-
I had recently had an evo x here with a TS T4 7670 on it- it spooled the same as our open scroll IWG 7163 setup- but made 35-40 less peak whp at the same boost-
even the Borg Warner engineers said "that is impressive- but it doesnt exactly surprise us"
cb
we are installing one car with the evo 8/9 kit next week- its basically our LMP kit but with pipe not tube- so its more robust long term for non motorsport applications-
we will be running a 6758 and 7163-
I had recently had an evo x here with a TS T4 7670 on it- it spooled the same as our open scroll IWG 7163 setup- but made 35-40 less peak whp at the same boost-
even the Borg Warner engineers said "that is impressive- but it doesnt exactly surprise us"
cb
1 - 7670 is on a MR vs. 7163 GSR - MR is known to dyno lower
2 - 7670 MR was dynoed on a 90+ degree day with super high humidity - worst case scenario for dyno numbers - I have no idea when his 7163 setup was dyno and the conditions that day.
3 - 7670 MR has a high flow cat
4 - 7670 MR was not tuned Chad - the 7670 MR is used for road racing - the tune is kept super conservative - because the car has to last through 20 minute laps at summit point
- I simply had the car dynoed on Chad's dyno because I wanted to see what power the car was putting down on the worst case scenario on a mustang dyno.
People just use common sense - ignoring transient response etc - a smaller turbo, ie 60lbs/min vs 65lbs/min - spooled the same as a 7670 and made more power.... if anything the "smaller turbo" should have spooled faster and either made the same or less power....
If Chad really wants to compare the turbos, he should just get both, tune them both on a similar car and then call it a day. You can find plenty of GSR 7670 making far more power than my setup - which makes sense - and those are the numbers you should be comparing if any....
Jul 1, 2015, 05:23 AM
#3050
Evolved Member
Tell me more about this. I'd love to hear your experience and reasoning behind this. I was under the impression that the topend flow of a TS vs open was no different. Of course, it seems every turbo in TS format is offered in a smaller A/R vs non TS, so that's something to consider as well.
Jul 1, 2015, 08:46 AM
#3051
Since I'm sorta tired of hearing Chad state the same statement on every single evo forum regarding 7670 vs 7163 - I'll add the facts he didn't add since I own the 7670 evo x
1 - 7670 is on a MR vs. 7163 GSR - MR is known to dyno lower
2 - 7670 MR was dynoed on a 90+ degree day with super high humidity - worst case scenario for dyno numbers - I have no idea when his 7163 setup was dyno and the conditions that day.
3 - 7670 MR has a high flow cat
4 - 7670 MR was not tuned Chad - the 7670 MR is used for road racing - the tune is kept super conservative - because the car has to last through 20 minute laps at summit point
- I simply had the car dynoed on Chad's dyno because I wanted to see what power the car was putting down on the worst case scenario on a mustang dyno.
People just use common sense - ignoring transient response etc - a smaller turbo, ie 60lbs/min vs 65lbs/min - spooled the same as a 7670 and made more power.... if anything the "smaller turbo" should have spooled faster and either made the same or less power....
If Chad really wants to compare the turbos, he should just get both, tune them both on a similar car and then call it a day. You can find plenty of GSR 7670 making far more power than my setup - which makes sense - and those are the numbers you should be comparing if any....
1 - 7670 is on a MR vs. 7163 GSR - MR is known to dyno lower
2 - 7670 MR was dynoed on a 90+ degree day with super high humidity - worst case scenario for dyno numbers - I have no idea when his 7163 setup was dyno and the conditions that day.
3 - 7670 MR has a high flow cat
4 - 7670 MR was not tuned Chad - the 7670 MR is used for road racing - the tune is kept super conservative - because the car has to last through 20 minute laps at summit point
- I simply had the car dynoed on Chad's dyno because I wanted to see what power the car was putting down on the worst case scenario on a mustang dyno.
People just use common sense - ignoring transient response etc - a smaller turbo, ie 60lbs/min vs 65lbs/min - spooled the same as a 7670 and made more power.... if anything the "smaller turbo" should have spooled faster and either made the same or less power....
If Chad really wants to compare the turbos, he should just get both, tune them both on a similar car and then call it a day. You can find plenty of GSR 7670 making far more power than my setup - which makes sense - and those are the numbers you should be comparing if any....
1 - 7670 is on a MR vs. 7163 GSR - MR is known to dyno lower
I CAN OVERLAY WITH OTHER MR's on 7163
2 - 7670 MR was dynoed on a 90+ degree day with super high humidity - worst case scenario for dyno numbers - I have no idea when his 7163 setup was dyno and the conditions that day.
MOST OF OUR TESTING HAS BEEN IN 80+ degree heat and humidity
3 - 7670 MR has a high flow cat
I CAN OVERLAY WITH MULTIPLE CARS WITH HIGH FLOW CATS AND LESS MODS FOR COMPARISON
4 - 7670 MR was not tuned Chad - the 7670 MR is used for road racing - the tune is kept super conservative - because the car has to last through 20 minute laps at summit point
- I simply had the car dynoed on Chad's dyno because I wanted to see what power the car was putting down on the worst case scenario on a mustang dyno.
YOUR CAR WAS RUNNING MORE BOOST THAN MOST OF THE COMPARISONS I HAVE- SO ITS HARD TO SAY ITS A CONSERVATIVE TUNE
We have been asked in multiple places for turbo comparisons- and we post what we have-
to your point of turbo size comparisons- the 7163 is a newer generation EFR turbo that was specifically designed to bridge the gap to the 7670 but in a more compact housing-
And another point- our 7163 is OPEN scroll- not twin- which inherently tends to have less back pressure and lend to better peak power- so that lends to the balance in spool versus power output also.
I also have plots of GSR's with STOCK airbox, FMIC, a high flow cat- etc making 400+whp at similar or less boost-
We will have more data shortly on turbo comparisons as we are testing for borg warner this week!
cb
Last edited by CBRD; Jul 1, 2015 at 09:17 AM.
Jul 1, 2015, 09:19 AM
#3052
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Tubular manifolds can be expensive, are arguably less durable than cast, and are usually turbo specific.
Imagine if there was a cast inconel T4 twinscroll manifold that allowed you to bolt up Garrett and EFR turbos. Make it fit the stock heat shield to boot.
Like the love child of the FP and APR manifolds
http://www.goapr.com/media/photos/72...2974/Original/
http://www.forcedperformance.net/PROD/EMFPEvo9.html
I think it would sell like hotcakes.
Imagine if there was a cast inconel T4 twinscroll manifold that allowed you to bolt up Garrett and EFR turbos. Make it fit the stock heat shield to boot.
Like the love child of the FP and APR manifolds
http://www.goapr.com/media/photos/72...2974/Original/
http://www.forcedperformance.net/PROD/EMFPEvo9.html
I think it would sell like hotcakes.
Quit feeding Garret with their 30 year old turbo technology!
Jul 1, 2015, 11:08 AM
#3055
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Here is a dyno chart for "some" comparison
RED is MR with 7670 on 28.2 psi tune- mentioned as conservative earlier with high flow cat
YELLOW is MR with 7163 at 26.1 psi tune- similar weather (this car actually made 428whp on our dyno day not more than two weeks later- but it was at 28psi)
GREEN is a GSR with 7163 on stock airbox, stock piping, stock fmic, etc- (car made 430-440whp with upgraded fmic etc)
---
obviously not apples to apples but there is a good comparison to be made between TS, OS, and spool versus power output-
In response to people asking why we dont do a TS 7163- its because we feel our peak power would drop with a slight pickup in spool- as mentioned many times- the compact 7163 with Vband IWG and Mixed flow turbing- works very well all around-
again food for thought
cb
RED is MR with 7670 on 28.2 psi tune- mentioned as conservative earlier with high flow cat
YELLOW is MR with 7163 at 26.1 psi tune- similar weather (this car actually made 428whp on our dyno day not more than two weeks later- but it was at 28psi)
GREEN is a GSR with 7163 on stock airbox, stock piping, stock fmic, etc- (car made 430-440whp with upgraded fmic etc)
---
obviously not apples to apples but there is a good comparison to be made between TS, OS, and spool versus power output-
In response to people asking why we dont do a TS 7163- its because we feel our peak power would drop with a slight pickup in spool- as mentioned many times- the compact 7163 with Vband IWG and Mixed flow turbing- works very well all around-
again food for thought
cb
Second - yes, my tune has more boost, because i generally run less timing - I am with the school of thought to use more boost and less timing, because I've found that its safer. Now I'm not going to get into a "tuning/tuner" battle with you because frankly I don't tune cars and you do.
But I would say just because someone is running more boost doesn't necessarily mean that their tune is more aggressive, and unless I'm reading your plots incorrectly your running more boost at near redline which is where you are making more power. Can't really tell from all the dotted and such so I could be wrong.
Regardless my point stands - if you want to do a comparison get a 7670, put it on a similar car with similar mods and you tune them both. My point will always remain - if your using a similar turbo, and one that is smaller it will likely spool faster and make a bit less power.
Last edited by mrnyan; Jul 1, 2015 at 01:15 PM.
Jul 1, 2015, 12:09 PM
#3057
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
First Chad, I never said you could use my dyno plot so I'd appreciate you at least removing my personal information from the chart - and once again I request that you don't use my dyno plot without permission.
Second - yes, my tune has more boost, because i generally run less timing - I am with the school of thought to use more boost and less timing, because I've found that its safer. Now I'm not going to get into a "tuning/tuner" battle with you because frankly I don't tune cars and you do.
But I would say just because someone is running more boost doesn't necessarily mean that their tune is more aggressive, and unless I'm reading your plots incorrectly your running more boost at near redline which is where you are making more power. Can't really tell from all the dotted and such so I could be wrong.
Regardless my point stands - if you want to do a comparison get a 7670, put it on a similar car with similar mods and you tune them both. My point will always remain - if your using a similar turbo, and one that is smaller it will likely spool faster and make a bit less power.
Second - yes, my tune has more boost, because i generally run less timing - I am with the school of thought to use more boost and less timing, because I've found that its safer. Now I'm not going to get into a "tuning/tuner" battle with you because frankly I don't tune cars and you do.
But I would say just because someone is running more boost doesn't necessarily mean that their tune is more aggressive, and unless I'm reading your plots incorrectly your running more boost at near redline which is where you are making more power. Can't really tell from all the dotted and such so I could be wrong.
Regardless my point stands - if you want to do a comparison get a 7670, put it on a similar car with similar mods and you tune them both. My point will always remain - if your using a similar turbo, and one that is smaller it will likely spool faster and make a bit less power.
The butt hurt is strong with you. Dyno charts aren't protected information. Get over yourself.
And he posted 3 different cars, the data is good enough to show the 7163 does an excellent job. And his cars are running maybe 1psi more out the top.
Jul 1, 2015, 12:23 PM
#3058
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People can conclude whatever they want, no one said the 7163 didn't make good power, or that the kit doesn't perform. I simply added in the details that CBRD didn't mention regarding the 7670.
Last edited by mrnyan; Jul 1, 2015 at 12:28 PM.
Jul 1, 2015, 01:16 PM
#3059
No disrespect- to those in question- I did remove the name-
however the dyno charts are considered CBRD property- we normally dont post the top information with license plates etc- however with the day we are having (phone and internet issues due to last nights storm) I was trying to get the information/plot up before it got too off topic!
One note-
typically more boost/less timing equals higher EGT's and not good for a track car- Most of our track cars run less boost, balanced mixture of ign. advance and fueling-
cb
however the dyno charts are considered CBRD property- we normally dont post the top information with license plates etc- however with the day we are having (phone and internet issues due to last nights storm) I was trying to get the information/plot up before it got too off topic!
One note-
typically more boost/less timing equals higher EGT's and not good for a track car- Most of our track cars run less boost, balanced mixture of ign. advance and fueling-
cb
Jul 1, 2015, 01:27 PM
#3060
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No disrespect- to those in question- I did remove the name-
however the dyno charts are considered CBRD property- we normally dont post the top information with license plates etc- however with the day we are having (phone and internet issues due to last nights storm) I was trying to get the information/plot up before it got too off topic!
One note-
typically more boost/less timing equals higher EGT's and not good for a track car- Most of our track cars run less boost, balanced mixture of ign. advance and fueling-
cb
however the dyno charts are considered CBRD property- we normally dont post the top information with license plates etc- however with the day we are having (phone and internet issues due to last nights storm) I was trying to get the information/plot up before it got too off topic!
One note-
typically more boost/less timing equals higher EGT's and not good for a track car- Most of our track cars run less boost, balanced mixture of ign. advance and fueling-
cb
- re: timing vs. boost - all I will say to that is yes - higher EGT - but I've personally had multiple tuners use timing as a crutch for more power and have had two motors blown. (suby world)
- purely anecdotal but I think many more people have had motors blown from aggressive timing than running a a couple pounds of more boost