Buschur Flashed........WOW.
Back to the subject of the thread. Dave, is the Buschur flash available for several stages of tune?
For instance, if I only have a Catback, K7N and MBC, is there a Buschur flash that'll work optimally for that? Or perhaps, should I wait to get the DP, HF cat and cams before I get the flash?
Sorry if this question is repetitive, but it's really hard to keep track of the infirmation between all the highjackings and Al bashings
Thanks
For instance, if I only have a Catback, K7N and MBC, is there a Buschur flash that'll work optimally for that? Or perhaps, should I wait to get the DP, HF cat and cams before I get the flash?
Sorry if this question is repetitive, but it's really hard to keep track of the infirmation between all the highjackings and Al bashings
Thanks
Shiv and I just exchanged PM's on this entire debate. I hope we can now bury the hatchet and move on.
This back and forth has gotten out of hand, toxic and counter productive.
I appologize to the EvoM community for my part in this stupid debate and idiotic back and forth. While i certainly feel there are two or even three sides to every story - I am certainly not without fault and accept responsibility for my contributions to attacks and debates in the past.
I have promised Shiv that I will no longer mention his name, discuss his products and attack him in any manner going forward.
I ask that all my clients also back OFF and let this die.
I ask that the vendors and products speak for themselves in the future in a postive manner and with respect for each other.
When you are competative in cars - trying to go faster, make a faster time slip, etc etc . . . . . . its all to easy to carry this competition into the market place and try and "best" your competition by out talking, arguing and debating.
This has all gotten out of hand and is harming this community as a whole and interfearing with our ability to carry on meaningful conversations.
From now on - I plan to just talk about my car, my tuning and what i do and let everyone else do what they are doing.
Lets all agree to disagree, respect each other and focus our energies on helping each other and helping to advance the body of knowledge for Evo tuning and modification.
No one is to blame here - but its time for us ALL to stop acting this way and go back to doing what we do best.
Life is too short - our country is fighting a war in Iraq - we don't need to be fighting each other. We are all brother Evo owners who love our cars and our hobbies. We have more in common than apart. We are making ourselves look like idiots by carrying on like school children. I want to be able to greet all my fellow Evo owners as brothers where ever I travel - no matter which tuner they choose.
Lets all turn a page and start a new.
This back and forth has gotten out of hand, toxic and counter productive.
I appologize to the EvoM community for my part in this stupid debate and idiotic back and forth. While i certainly feel there are two or even three sides to every story - I am certainly not without fault and accept responsibility for my contributions to attacks and debates in the past.
I have promised Shiv that I will no longer mention his name, discuss his products and attack him in any manner going forward.
I ask that all my clients also back OFF and let this die.
I ask that the vendors and products speak for themselves in the future in a postive manner and with respect for each other.
When you are competative in cars - trying to go faster, make a faster time slip, etc etc . . . . . . its all to easy to carry this competition into the market place and try and "best" your competition by out talking, arguing and debating.
This has all gotten out of hand and is harming this community as a whole and interfearing with our ability to carry on meaningful conversations.
From now on - I plan to just talk about my car, my tuning and what i do and let everyone else do what they are doing.
Lets all agree to disagree, respect each other and focus our energies on helping each other and helping to advance the body of knowledge for Evo tuning and modification.
No one is to blame here - but its time for us ALL to stop acting this way and go back to doing what we do best.
Life is too short - our country is fighting a war in Iraq - we don't need to be fighting each other. We are all brother Evo owners who love our cars and our hobbies. We have more in common than apart. We are making ourselves look like idiots by carrying on like school children. I want to be able to greet all my fellow Evo owners as brothers where ever I travel - no matter which tuner they choose.
Lets all turn a page and start a new.
Last edited by Alfriedesq; Jan 18, 2004 at 01:06 PM.
Originally posted by Smogrunner
Wow! Buscher makes 67 more horsepower with lower octane fuel, RIGHT? Well, I can garantee that Buscher didn't use an amatuer driver like me to run that 111.2 trap speed, right? His team is unparalleled in this arena. OK then, today I ran 110.97 mph trap: This was the fourth run of my life and my trap is just .2 MPH behind the Buscher Stage 3 that is loaded with intake, ic piping, etc. that mine doesn't have. So Metaphysical, how do you explain my car and Buschers being about the same with his making 343 and mine making 276?
If you need any help verifying this, let me know.
Wow! Buscher makes 67 more horsepower with lower octane fuel, RIGHT? Well, I can garantee that Buscher didn't use an amatuer driver like me to run that 111.2 trap speed, right? His team is unparalleled in this arena. OK then, today I ran 110.97 mph trap: This was the fourth run of my life and my trap is just .2 MPH behind the Buscher Stage 3 that is loaded with intake, ic piping, etc. that mine doesn't have. So Metaphysical, how do you explain my car and Buschers being about the same with his making 343 and mine making 276?
If you need any help verifying this, let me know.
I apologize if my posts were interpreted as attacks or "hijacking". I felt the need to respond to what I felt were deliberately baiting and misleading comments. It is no secret I am a fan of Vishnu and it's hard to sit idle when you perceive bull**** being spread.
It is clear to me now that the better thing to do in that situation is to shut up and let vendors' products speak for themselves, as I have no doubt they will. The community here is smart enough to analyze the facts and numbers and without my commentary!
Like I said in each of my posts, I do think the BuschurFlash curves will be more interesting and that they will likely bring about renewed competition in the reflash space.
Bring on the shootout, bring on the power!
It is clear to me now that the better thing to do in that situation is to shut up and let vendors' products speak for themselves, as I have no doubt they will. The community here is smart enough to analyze the facts and numbers and without my commentary!
Like I said in each of my posts, I do think the BuschurFlash curves will be more interesting and that they will likely bring about renewed competition in the reflash space.
Bring on the shootout, bring on the power!
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Originally posted by UFO
Let's totally forget about things such as altitude & weather conditions because they have absolutely no bearing on 1/4 mile times and trap speeds do they. They have as little effect on traps speeds as other factors such as head winds (please note the sarcasm in my last 2 sentences, just to avoid confusion). The thing about dyno numbers is that they can, and should, be SAE corrected (even though SAE correction isn't an exact science and some people have been known to skew these numbers too). You don't do that with 1/4 mile times. How do you know your times weren't performed in negative DA conditions while Buschur's were performed at much higher DA numbers? Your argument is loose at best and has no foundation.
Let's totally forget about things such as altitude & weather conditions because they have absolutely no bearing on 1/4 mile times and trap speeds do they. They have as little effect on traps speeds as other factors such as head winds (please note the sarcasm in my last 2 sentences, just to avoid confusion). The thing about dyno numbers is that they can, and should, be SAE corrected (even though SAE correction isn't an exact science and some people have been known to skew these numbers too). You don't do that with 1/4 mile times. How do you know your times weren't performed in negative DA conditions while Buschur's were performed at much higher DA numbers? Your argument is loose at best and has no foundation.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Originally posted by Smogrunner
I am an historian by trade so lets do a simple research project: Go to D. Buscher's website to his staged upgrades section and look at the 1/4 trap speed of his Stage 3 EVO. It is 111.2 and Buscher claims 343 horsepower.
Now look at my car. It is a Vishnu Stage One Evo rated at 276 horsepower on the Vishnu dyno when using 98 octane. (All my dyno sheets are on EVOM as are my time slips)
Wow! Buscher makes 67 more horsepower with lower octane fuel, RIGHT? Well, I can garantee that Buscher didn't use an amatuer driver like me to run that 111.2 trap speed, right? His team is unparalleled in this arena. OK then, today I ran 110.97 mph trap: This was the fourth run of my life and my trap is just .2 MPH behind the Buscher Stage 3 that is loaded with intake, ic piping, etc. that mine doesn't have. So Metaphysical, how do you explain my car and Buschers being about the same with his making 343 and mine making 276?
If you need any help verifying this, let me know.
I am an historian by trade so lets do a simple research project: Go to D. Buscher's website to his staged upgrades section and look at the 1/4 trap speed of his Stage 3 EVO. It is 111.2 and Buscher claims 343 horsepower.
Now look at my car. It is a Vishnu Stage One Evo rated at 276 horsepower on the Vishnu dyno when using 98 octane. (All my dyno sheets are on EVOM as are my time slips)
Wow! Buscher makes 67 more horsepower with lower octane fuel, RIGHT? Well, I can garantee that Buscher didn't use an amatuer driver like me to run that 111.2 trap speed, right? His team is unparalleled in this arena. OK then, today I ran 110.97 mph trap: This was the fourth run of my life and my trap is just .2 MPH behind the Buscher Stage 3 that is loaded with intake, ic piping, etc. that mine doesn't have. So Metaphysical, how do you explain my car and Buschers being about the same with his making 343 and mine making 276?
If you need any help verifying this, let me know.
hey dont forget me I trapped 106 same day same track on 91 with my intake and exhaust vs. your 100 XEDE and exhaust
but 2 good runs none the less
-non
Originally posted by Alfriedesq
I appologize to the EvoM community for my part in this stupid debate and idiotic back and forth. While i certainly feel there are two or even three sides to every story - I am certainly not without fault and accept responsibility for my contributions to attacks and debates in the past.
.
I appologize to the EvoM community for my part in this stupid debate and idiotic back and forth. While i certainly feel there are two or even three sides to every story - I am certainly not without fault and accept responsibility for my contributions to attacks and debates in the past.
.
Dang. Went to bed last night with 7 pages here, come back this afternoon and it is up to 13. I told my wife, Renee, I wasn't looking forward to reading more but I had to come and answer the serious questions, as I always do.
I started reading and the more I read the less I cared about it.
Now I see guys apologizing. I have no apology, I defended myself, my integrity and my products. I have always done this, raise my son to do the same and will continue to do so when I feel I am right.
Anway........
Steve,
Yes, we have a margin of safety in the BuschurFlash. You really have to, the octane of fuel is the largest problem. You can do to any station in Ohio and get 94 octane. The problem is at more than half of those you are probably pumping 89, they are crooks.
John,
Why don't we have an AWD dyno is what you asked, and in a crappy way I want to add. I guess I have to justify even more to some of you. Our Dynojet, when we bought it in 1999 was only available in 2wd form. The dyno cost me about $30,000, then there was the hole we had to put in the ground in our building which tied up an entire bay of our shop. Then there was the computer, printer and such. I had invested an easy $35,000 in buying this "great investment". A year later we were out of room at our shop. I built a new building to free up the wasted space the dyno was taking up in the shop. The building cost me another $30,000 and then I had to fill in the other hole, concrete over it and then dig the new hole and finish it. Another $35,000 spent. The dyno, no matter what type you have, is a tuning tool. Plain and simple, I have said it before. I make no secrets that we use a 2wd dyno, I don't care. I don't care because it is a tuning tool. Onto the question you asked. Let's forget about the addition and the moving of the dyno and stick with the original $35,000 I have invested in the dyno. I live in Wakeman, Ohio. This is where my shop is too. Town has about 1,000 people in it, mostly farmers. Largest close town is Cleveland about 45 minutes away. Just how much dyno business do you think we get? We would charge $75 an hour to use it, but I don't feel right about charging that much. So usually I let a guy use it for an hour or two and charge him $50 or $75. Even if I charged him $75 I would have to rent the dyno 467 times to get my investment back. I don't think we have rented the dyno to 50 seperate guys since we have had it. Good investment? I think not. Now to upgrade to the 4wd dyno we would have to dig the garage floor up and put in the other rollers, cost us another $30,000. Are you starting to get my point? The dyno is a tuning tool. For the last 4 years since we have had it we have dyno'd and tuned DSM's. Converting them is an easy affair unlike the EVO is (converting to 2wd). Tuning the cars in 2wd, since it is a tuning tool, has worked out quite well for us and I have no reason or desire to spend another $30,000 on making our dyno 4wd. I don't really care about the numbers it produces, they are for bragging rights. Fact is our bragging rights numbers are backed up by 1/4 mile times that match.
How is it that we ran 11.65 at 117.88 mph on a stock turbo if we aren't making substantial power? Think about it.
As for our Stages 1-3 and the times we have posted none of the runs are what I would call fabulous, especially the ones I made in the car. We have a customer who just ran 12.5 at 108 mph with our Stage 1 ($1395), this is BETTER than we ran and on pump gas.
Stage 3 has gone 12.09 at 114 mph. ($3445)
Stage 4 has gone 11.65 at 117.88 mph. ($3995)
I would also like to add to this that with these packages you get some show quality parts for under the hood. Everything we make from tubing is polished 304 grade CNC mandrel bent SS. Not only are you getting parts that perform but you are getting something that really sets the car apart.
EZ76, you made the remark that our dyno runs were on race gas. That is correct. Shiv's sheet that you printed says right on it "100 octane", last I checked that is also race gas.
I will start a new topic on Monday or Tuesday as soon as we get the new charts printed and are able to post them. The charts are from our "magic dyno" so for those of you that are going to have some stupid comment about them you can just avoid the topic.
Thanks for reading, I keep hoping sooner or later I can make my point for everyone to understand.
Also, we have an EVO specific forum on our website for any of you that want to come there and post. I try to get there and here daily to answer questions and help out.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I started reading and the more I read the less I cared about it.
Now I see guys apologizing. I have no apology, I defended myself, my integrity and my products. I have always done this, raise my son to do the same and will continue to do so when I feel I am right.
Anway........
Steve,
Yes, we have a margin of safety in the BuschurFlash. You really have to, the octane of fuel is the largest problem. You can do to any station in Ohio and get 94 octane. The problem is at more than half of those you are probably pumping 89, they are crooks.
John,
Why don't we have an AWD dyno is what you asked, and in a crappy way I want to add. I guess I have to justify even more to some of you. Our Dynojet, when we bought it in 1999 was only available in 2wd form. The dyno cost me about $30,000, then there was the hole we had to put in the ground in our building which tied up an entire bay of our shop. Then there was the computer, printer and such. I had invested an easy $35,000 in buying this "great investment". A year later we were out of room at our shop. I built a new building to free up the wasted space the dyno was taking up in the shop. The building cost me another $30,000 and then I had to fill in the other hole, concrete over it and then dig the new hole and finish it. Another $35,000 spent. The dyno, no matter what type you have, is a tuning tool. Plain and simple, I have said it before. I make no secrets that we use a 2wd dyno, I don't care. I don't care because it is a tuning tool. Onto the question you asked. Let's forget about the addition and the moving of the dyno and stick with the original $35,000 I have invested in the dyno. I live in Wakeman, Ohio. This is where my shop is too. Town has about 1,000 people in it, mostly farmers. Largest close town is Cleveland about 45 minutes away. Just how much dyno business do you think we get? We would charge $75 an hour to use it, but I don't feel right about charging that much. So usually I let a guy use it for an hour or two and charge him $50 or $75. Even if I charged him $75 I would have to rent the dyno 467 times to get my investment back. I don't think we have rented the dyno to 50 seperate guys since we have had it. Good investment? I think not. Now to upgrade to the 4wd dyno we would have to dig the garage floor up and put in the other rollers, cost us another $30,000. Are you starting to get my point? The dyno is a tuning tool. For the last 4 years since we have had it we have dyno'd and tuned DSM's. Converting them is an easy affair unlike the EVO is (converting to 2wd). Tuning the cars in 2wd, since it is a tuning tool, has worked out quite well for us and I have no reason or desire to spend another $30,000 on making our dyno 4wd. I don't really care about the numbers it produces, they are for bragging rights. Fact is our bragging rights numbers are backed up by 1/4 mile times that match.
How is it that we ran 11.65 at 117.88 mph on a stock turbo if we aren't making substantial power? Think about it.
As for our Stages 1-3 and the times we have posted none of the runs are what I would call fabulous, especially the ones I made in the car. We have a customer who just ran 12.5 at 108 mph with our Stage 1 ($1395), this is BETTER than we ran and on pump gas.
Stage 3 has gone 12.09 at 114 mph. ($3445)
Stage 4 has gone 11.65 at 117.88 mph. ($3995)
I would also like to add to this that with these packages you get some show quality parts for under the hood. Everything we make from tubing is polished 304 grade CNC mandrel bent SS. Not only are you getting parts that perform but you are getting something that really sets the car apart.
EZ76, you made the remark that our dyno runs were on race gas. That is correct. Shiv's sheet that you printed says right on it "100 octane", last I checked that is also race gas.
I will start a new topic on Monday or Tuesday as soon as we get the new charts printed and are able to post them. The charts are from our "magic dyno" so for those of you that are going to have some stupid comment about them you can just avoid the topic.
Thanks for reading, I keep hoping sooner or later I can make my point for everyone to understand.
Also, we have an EVO specific forum on our website for any of you that want to come there and post. I try to get there and here daily to answer questions and help out.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: NJ
Originally posted by johnnyevo
I really dont understand how we can honestly compare the two dyno's and graphs.
2 different dynos, and two different ways of testing. One tests the car in AWD, and the other as converted to 2WD.
Knowing that, we all know that the car that is converted to 2WD will make more power on the dyno, because of the less stuff it has to spin. And probably make those power figuires a few RPM sooner than a car that is still driving all its wheels.
Also, we all know that the dyno Shiv uses reads substantially lower than a dyno jet, AWD, and 2WD. So it is again unfair to compare peak numbers. So it seems to me that Buscher is at an advantage in the #'s war, as he has a 2WD dynojet, and his car is converted to 2WD.
So if some uneducated person were to just look at the graphs or the curves they might be misled and think that one makes all this power, and does it sooner in RPM's.
I'm not looking to start stuff, it's just my take on the whole situation. The only way to accurately compare the two, as we all know would be on the same dyno, same day, same gas, blah, blah, blah.
Also not being a wise ***, a question for Dave:
After all these years tuning these cars and building quite a repectable name for yourself, why havent you purchased an AWD dyno of some sort?
Thanks guys! Lets keep this thread clean!
John
I really dont understand how we can honestly compare the two dyno's and graphs.
2 different dynos, and two different ways of testing. One tests the car in AWD, and the other as converted to 2WD.
Knowing that, we all know that the car that is converted to 2WD will make more power on the dyno, because of the less stuff it has to spin. And probably make those power figuires a few RPM sooner than a car that is still driving all its wheels.
Also, we all know that the dyno Shiv uses reads substantially lower than a dyno jet, AWD, and 2WD. So it is again unfair to compare peak numbers. So it seems to me that Buscher is at an advantage in the #'s war, as he has a 2WD dynojet, and his car is converted to 2WD.
So if some uneducated person were to just look at the graphs or the curves they might be misled and think that one makes all this power, and does it sooner in RPM's.
I'm not looking to start stuff, it's just my take on the whole situation. The only way to accurately compare the two, as we all know would be on the same dyno, same day, same gas, blah, blah, blah.
Also not being a wise ***, a question for Dave:
After all these years tuning these cars and building quite a repectable name for yourself, why havent you purchased an AWD dyno of some sort?
Thanks guys! Lets keep this thread clean!
John
Hey if the 2WD method has been working for you, than great.
Yes I agree that the dyno is a great tuning tool, and a great investment for any tuning shop. You go on later in your post to say that it is not a great investment. You can't possibly expect to recover the cost of your dyno just by renting it out by the hour! You have to add a little bit to your parts and products.
If you really didnt care about the numbers, then you wouldnt be comparing your numbers to shivs numbers as you have done on this post.
I have never doubted the power you are making, MPH is a good indication of HP
oh well, cant wait to read the other 7 pages tomorrow!
John
Johnny,
I don't believe he's comparing "numbers" per se, rather than the curve and gains and more importantly, the area UNDER the curve.
If it was my call, I wouldn't fork that money over just to cater to some internet q-backs who want dyno numbers on a 4wd. It's purpose is as a tuning tool and it works at that, so leave well enough alone.
And as for the other 7 pages, don't bother, it's most of the same old Evom undermoderated BS flamewar.
I don't believe he's comparing "numbers" per se, rather than the curve and gains and more importantly, the area UNDER the curve.
If it was my call, I wouldn't fork that money over just to cater to some internet q-backs who want dyno numbers on a 4wd. It's purpose is as a tuning tool and it works at that, so leave well enough alone.
And as for the other 7 pages, don't bother, it's most of the same old Evom undermoderated BS flamewar.
Evolved Member
iTrader: (20)
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally posted by 4G63>OOOO
Johnny,
I don't believe he's comparing "numbers" per se, rather than the curve and gains and more importantly, the area UNDER the curve.
Johnny,
I don't believe he's comparing "numbers" per se, rather than the curve and gains and more importantly, the area UNDER the curve.
my 2c,
shiv
Now I'm Excited!
Well regardless of all the bull**** that has gone down with this thread, I'm super excited to know that I can drive 1.5 to Buschar's and have Stage 4 installed and never have to mess with the tuning.....I'm saving my pennies 
Now your dyno has unusually low numbers AND goofy curves? If you want to 'pick a fight' with Dave, put it on the track (that is what he is about). Then show us time slips and mod cost. If you don't feel comfortable in that arena, then SHUT UP! Nobody cares about your dyno excuses and they sure don't belong in this thread. I can't fathom why you don't get it. You are contributing NOTHING to this thread.
Originally posted by shiv@vishnu
Different types of dynos (especially when comparing an intertial dyno to a load bearing dyno) present different loading charactertics. As such, they will induce different shaped graphs with different areas under the curves. I can cite concrete examples (with graphs) if necessary.
Different types of dynos (especially when comparing an intertial dyno to a load bearing dyno) present different loading charactertics. As such, they will induce different shaped graphs with different areas under the curves. I can cite concrete examples (with graphs) if necessary.
http://tnmotorsports.com/dyno.htm
By using the horse power calaculator which is located at the above link we can verify the time slips reported by Buschur and Buschur's customers are exactly matching the numbers they claim from their dyno
If anything - the numbers Buschur is claiming are on the low side due to their extreme dyno measures which really load up the car and heat soak it
How much whp do you all think it takes to make an evo go 11.65 with full interior and exhuast? My guess is just over 400 whp.
Also - my base calibration maps which I tested out on the Buschur dyno produced almost exactly the same numbers as they did on Pruven's AWD dyno jet and also on a awd dyno pak.
BTW - all the numbers Buschur quoted are SAE corrected
AWD/2wd - whichever - the dyno sheets are going to speak volumes for the tuning skills at Buschur and in the comming weeks we will be seeing reports back from customers about the improvements they feel and experience and also some time slips from the drag strip.
I know Rollaway who already wnet 11.80 at 119 with his dyno flashed Buschur Stage 4 will be hitting the dyno at Pruven this week to test out the Buschur Flash and I would expect him to hit the track very soon thereafter
By using the horse power calaculator which is located at the above link we can verify the time slips reported by Buschur and Buschur's customers are exactly matching the numbers they claim from their dyno
If anything - the numbers Buschur is claiming are on the low side due to their extreme dyno measures which really load up the car and heat soak it
How much whp do you all think it takes to make an evo go 11.65 with full interior and exhuast? My guess is just over 400 whp.
Also - my base calibration maps which I tested out on the Buschur dyno produced almost exactly the same numbers as they did on Pruven's AWD dyno jet and also on a awd dyno pak.
BTW - all the numbers Buschur quoted are SAE corrected
AWD/2wd - whichever - the dyno sheets are going to speak volumes for the tuning skills at Buschur and in the comming weeks we will be seeing reports back from customers about the improvements they feel and experience and also some time slips from the drag strip.
I know Rollaway who already wnet 11.80 at 119 with his dyno flashed Buschur Stage 4 will be hitting the dyno at Pruven this week to test out the Buschur Flash and I would expect him to hit the track very soon thereafter
Last edited by Alfriedesq; Jan 18, 2004 at 03:53 PM.