GSC R2's with Supertech duel valvetrain is a NO GO
FWIW, ForcedPerformance has already been down this road. FPX cams years ago had similar lift and advertised duration rates. They had ALL KINDS of problems and I think eventually stopped selling them because the average user didn't listen to what they were saying and simply tossed them in with standard "dual valvesprings" and without checking clearances.
To start with, when you open the valve this much, you run into geometry issues that can lead to high valvetrain component wear rates. Then you have seal to retainer clearance issues. Then piston to valve clearance issues. Aaron went over all this in his original thread. I asked a simple question of basically "if the best case scenario where everything in the head is right, can these work with stock pistons." His response was basically, "if you check the clearances it will be VERY CLOSE."
Somehow that statement turned into "this will work in a stock motor" because people don't understand jack **** about building motors.
To start with, when you open the valve this much, you run into geometry issues that can lead to high valvetrain component wear rates. Then you have seal to retainer clearance issues. Then piston to valve clearance issues. Aaron went over all this in his original thread. I asked a simple question of basically "if the best case scenario where everything in the head is right, can these work with stock pistons." His response was basically, "if you check the clearances it will be VERY CLOSE."
Somehow that statement turned into "this will work in a stock motor" because people don't understand jack **** about building motors.
It has come with the territory that an average guy can make 600+whp with no knowledge of engine building or clearances. Cars are getting easier and easier to go faster and because of that people complain that X shop sold them X camshaft and it hits the VVS. Not knocking the OP, but it is more a reference for "if you wanna go fast, you can't assume"
Last edited by Jwhalen07; Apr 8, 2013 at 12:14 PM.
They are stating the range from install to coil bind not seal to bottom of the retainer. Pretty much no one states retainer to seal because of the differences in guide height, valve keeper groves on both the valve and the keeper, the angle at which the valve seal is cut, and what type of seal is used. Don't forget those seals arent exactly nominal held tolerance so they could move a round a bit.
As far as clearance goes on the 4G63 you can't make a retainer that uses the factory keeper and run the factory guide at spec'd height and have more than 12.7mm of clearance. at least that is what we got on our setup measured with a CMM.
Thanks for Sharing your findings OP.
Greg
As far as clearance goes on the 4G63 you can't make a retainer that uses the factory keeper and run the factory guide at spec'd height and have more than 12.7mm of clearance. at least that is what we got on our setup measured with a CMM.
Thanks for Sharing your findings OP.
Greg
How do you determine the "max lift" of your springs if its drastically smaller than than the coil bind limit and has nothing to do with the retainer clearnace? Thanks.
-Jamie
I realize you are trying to protect your livelihood here since you are an online tuner, but please do not attempt to discredit my statements in your own self interest. My info is not skewed at all.
I had genuine Supertech dual valve springs, purchased via STM. STM installed them, not once, but twice. Both times, the springs un-seated the valve stem seals, causing me to leak oil. Seen here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...s-leaking.html
The first set WAS returned to Supertech and a new set installed. Same issue.
So unless you want to officially say that STM did not install them correctly, STM sold me 2 sets of knock-off springs/valve sets, or that STM skewed the info, then please reconsider your statement.
I had genuine Supertech dual valve springs, purchased via STM. STM installed them, not once, but twice. Both times, the springs un-seated the valve stem seals, causing me to leak oil. Seen here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...s-leaking.html
The first set WAS returned to Supertech and a new set installed. Same issue.
So unless you want to officially say that STM did not install them correctly, STM sold me 2 sets of knock-off springs/valve sets, or that STM skewed the info, then please reconsider your statement.
the buschur head uses supertech dual springs + manley valves.
i wasnt trying to discredit you either. im just saying i know many people who run what gave you issues. i have no idea why it gave you issues, but there are tons of people who run that combination just fine that have 30-40K+ miles on it.
what ended up fixing your issue?
STM removed the supertechs, put the OEM single springs back in. I still have the most recent set of supertechs, in case I want to try again. And since I'm not running my car up to crazy RPMs, nor are the Kelford 272s a crazy lift, I'm sticking with the OEM springs for now.
Idk where all this is going guys! Aaron at ER said to check all the clearances, so I did. I need to change the spring set to get clearance. I wasent surprised at all. Idk if some people think I was complaining, I wasent! I was just letting everyone know for their future reference. That's all. Gonna get the gsc spring set otw which should clear up my issue. No big deal.....
STM removed the supertechs, put the OEM single springs back in. I still have the most recent set of supertechs, in case I want to try again. And since I'm not running my car up to crazy RPMs, nor are the Kelford 272s a crazy lift, I'm sticking with the OEM springs for now.
I am curious why they didn't work for you though. im going to read the thread you posted.
I was only taking mine to 8500-8800 max also.
===============================================
I just read the thread. that sucks.
I remember when i did Steves (isah sleepers head) we used supertech dual valve springs part # SPRK-M1005D
with their valves part # MEVN-1007 & MIVN.
he uses gsc s3's.
i just read if the seal is not thin enough to clear the spring it can rip it apart from this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/8993858-post7.html (so maybe supertech supplied the wrong seals in the kit).
To put your mind at more ease with the kelfords, Scott was reving to 9K on stock valvetrain for awhile. i wasn't even aware of it until he said something. he was trapping around 140 at the time.
Last edited by tscompusa; Apr 8, 2013 at 01:27 PM.
Idk where all this is going guys! Aaron at ER said to check all the clearances, so I did. I need to change the spring set to get clearance. I wasent surprised at all. Idk if some people think I was complaining, I wasent! I was just letting everyone know for their future reference. That's all. Gonna get the gsc spring set otw which should clear up my issue. No big deal.....
HE stated that there shouldn't be any clearance issues with the 5041 and that they machined the retainers to clear the seals with the lift of the R2s.
Last edited by michaelrc51; Apr 14, 2013 at 10:46 AM.
STM removed the supertechs, put the OEM single springs back in. I still have the most recent set of supertechs, in case I want to try again. And since I'm not running my car up to crazy RPMs, nor are the Kelford 272s a crazy lift, I'm sticking with the OEM springs for now.
This is part of the reason I just pulled the trigger on the GSC 5041 kit.
Last edited by michaelrc51; Apr 8, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
FWIW as long as the spring has enough open and closed spring pressure for the camshaft and proper installed height, the valve train should not wear abnormally. We have pretty low lift numbers compared to other valve train and the springs we are installing will live at these lift numbers for a long time. We have +20k on kiggly beehives with a .443 lift cam with a very aggressive ramp and last time we switched the bottom end over everything checked out fine. As long as the camshaft is ground correctly and the lifters are in good working order the valve train will stay stable.
It has come with the territory that an average guy can make 600+whp with no knowledge of engine building or clearances. Cars are getting easier and easier to go faster and because of that people complain that X shop sold them X camshaft and it hits the VVS. Not knocking the OP, but it is more a reference for "if you wanna go fast, you can't assume"
It has come with the territory that an average guy can make 600+whp with no knowledge of engine building or clearances. Cars are getting easier and easier to go faster and because of that people complain that X shop sold them X camshaft and it hits the VVS. Not knocking the OP, but it is more a reference for "if you wanna go fast, you can't assume"
Also, these cams have more lift then the 0.443" cams you are referencing. An extra 0.030"...
I point this out simply because I was amazed in that other thread where Aaron made it very clear you are taking a huge risk trying to put these in a stock motor, AFTER checking clearances. Yet within a few posts, there were several guys that basically interpreted it as “yeah they work in a stock motor” and began to spread bad info.
Spoke to Trevor at GSC today and they said there are 2 Supertech seals. One is an OEM replacemnet and one is a thinner shorter version. Trevor said that the shorter thinner version ones aren't great and a new set of GSC seals is like $10 so....
HE stated that there shouldn't be any clearance issues with the 5041 and that they machined the retainers to clear the seals with the lift of the R2s.
HE stated that there shouldn't be any clearance issues with the 5041 and that they machined the retainers to clear the seals with the lift of the R2s.
AMS CNC Head Testing
When lift exceeds ~10.5mm, all flow data I've seen to date clearly shows that the factory ports, bowls, valves, and seats of an EVO head become unresponsive to additional lift. We can thank the factory for that. A top-tier CNC port job with better valves and seats trumps the factory head in both low and high lift flow, and resulting power. As such, a factory head and valvetrain always leaves power on the table, even with a mild cam set.
A camshaft has a required/recommended open/closed spring pressure. Every cam shaft out there has different peak rate of velocity for the ramp rate in both direction(opening the valve/ closing the valve) so the numbers may be slightly different from one cam to the next.
I point this out simply because I was amazed in that other thread where Aaron made it very clear you are taking a huge risk trying to put these in a stock motor, AFTER checking clearances. Yet within a few posts, there were several guys that basically interpreted it as “yeah they work in a stock motor” and began to spread bad info.
Could you explain what determines the "max lift" rating is since its completely different than the "coil bind" rating? For example, probably the most used Supertech dual set is the SPR-M1007D set and it says a max lift of 14.90mm and coil bind at 24.70mm. Clearly I wasn't stating that coil bind had a single thing to do with the retainer-to-VSS clearance.
How do you determine the "max lift" of your springs if its drastically smaller than than the coil bind limit and has nothing to do with the retainer clearnace? Thanks.
-Jamie
How do you determine the "max lift" of your springs if its drastically smaller than than the coil bind limit and has nothing to do with the retainer clearnace? Thanks.
-Jamie
I am not sure what they mean by the two numbers I'm just saying its not possible to run on any spring kit on the 4G63.
From the keeper bottom on the exhaust side to the seal is .484"+/-.010" or 12.04mm-12.29mm. These numbers are off oem heads that haven't been valve jobbed and using oem locks, valves.