Modded Evo 8: What will it take to beat GT3s and C6 Z06s on the race track?
Mar 29, 2006, 05:35 PM
#76
Shut up man, yes 1:04 in lime rock is considered fast http://www.scca-nnjr.org/results/080704/race-grp1.html. I've answered a lot of your questions, I'm still waiting for the z06 laptime numbers, your race experience, and anything worth reading from you?
Scorke
Also is english your first language? because if it is, damn......
Scorke
Also is english your first language? because if it is, damn......
Last edited by scorke; Mar 29, 2006 at 05:38 PM.
Mar 29, 2006, 05:41 PM
#78
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Maybe I dont like to yell out "Please look at me, I am so pertty" lol.
I am just joking with u man, relax. ****, is the internet man, maybe I DONT EXIST....
I AM DONE, PROMISE.
LOVE U ALL
I am just joking with u man, relax. ****, is the internet man, maybe I DONT EXIST....
I AM DONE, PROMISE.
LOVE U ALL
Mar 29, 2006, 05:43 PM
#79
Sry, I have no problem with that, bump for this guy to get his setup figured out, and sorry for the off topic posts, I just hate people talking **** about things they have no place arguing over.
Again, look up Nils and GT40, these guys probably have the closest thing to the type of setup you are looking for.
Scorke
Again, look up Nils and GT40, these guys probably have the closest thing to the type of setup you are looking for.
Scorke
Mar 29, 2006, 08:23 PM
#80
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I was at Spring Mountain this weekend.
We brought the black Evo that took second at the Buttonwillow time attack (see http://www.superstreetonline.com/eve...ack/index.html ). This car was tuned by DB and has a built 2.3l with a GT35, AEM, race suspension, big brakes, etc. We ran 285 Hoosiers. This car made 500 hp on race gas, 400 on the pump. Other than pulling out a lot of weight, this car has most of the "big" mods.
We also brought a white evo with stock turbo, 10.5 hotside, 272s, intake, exhaust, tune, MBC, coilovers. We ran 255 RA1s. This car has not been dynoed but probably makes 300 hp. This car has the basic mods.
Both cars have race seats, harnesses, etc.
There were several Corvettes, 6 GT3s, a few Elises, 2 Exiges, several M3s, a Caymen S, a 911 turbo S, a 360, etc.
It is tough to judge how fast a car is unless it is driven by the same person on the same day, same track. I passed many of those cars many times but that's because the drivers had less experience. It says nothing about how capable those cars are on the track. A first timer on the track versus a pro driver is like a high school basketball player playing against Shaq or Kobe. There is so much difference from driver to driver that you can't compare cars with different drivers.
Back to the answer. I did ride and drive in several of the cars as an instructor. My opinion is that the GT3s (most had RA1s or Hoosiers) had much better brakes and quite a bit more stright line pull than the white Evo (basic mods). The white Evo seemed slightly faster in the corners. I didn't drive any of the new z06s but they looked quite capable to me. As for the black Evo, about the only thing that pulled harder was the 600 hp 911 turbo s. That car was faster in a straight line than the black Evo.
IMO an Evo with basic mods like our white car would have slower lap times than both a 911 or z06 on the same rubber (with the same driver). The black car would take them both, but it is heavily modified. That said, there was a gt3 with moton club sports and basic mods and it seemed very fast. At Buttonwillow I bet it was a 54-56 car. The black car ran a 1:52.5
On the drag strip it might be a different story, but on a road race course the GT3 and Z06 are serious cars that would spank a stock Evo.
We brought the black Evo that took second at the Buttonwillow time attack (see http://www.superstreetonline.com/eve...ack/index.html ). This car was tuned by DB and has a built 2.3l with a GT35, AEM, race suspension, big brakes, etc. We ran 285 Hoosiers. This car made 500 hp on race gas, 400 on the pump. Other than pulling out a lot of weight, this car has most of the "big" mods.
We also brought a white evo with stock turbo, 10.5 hotside, 272s, intake, exhaust, tune, MBC, coilovers. We ran 255 RA1s. This car has not been dynoed but probably makes 300 hp. This car has the basic mods.
Both cars have race seats, harnesses, etc.
There were several Corvettes, 6 GT3s, a few Elises, 2 Exiges, several M3s, a Caymen S, a 911 turbo S, a 360, etc.
It is tough to judge how fast a car is unless it is driven by the same person on the same day, same track. I passed many of those cars many times but that's because the drivers had less experience. It says nothing about how capable those cars are on the track. A first timer on the track versus a pro driver is like a high school basketball player playing against Shaq or Kobe. There is so much difference from driver to driver that you can't compare cars with different drivers.
Back to the answer. I did ride and drive in several of the cars as an instructor. My opinion is that the GT3s (most had RA1s or Hoosiers) had much better brakes and quite a bit more stright line pull than the white Evo (basic mods). The white Evo seemed slightly faster in the corners. I didn't drive any of the new z06s but they looked quite capable to me. As for the black Evo, about the only thing that pulled harder was the 600 hp 911 turbo s. That car was faster in a straight line than the black Evo.
IMO an Evo with basic mods like our white car would have slower lap times than both a 911 or z06 on the same rubber (with the same driver). The black car would take them both, but it is heavily modified. That said, there was a gt3 with moton club sports and basic mods and it seemed very fast. At Buttonwillow I bet it was a 54-56 car. The black car ran a 1:52.5
On the drag strip it might be a different story, but on a road race course the GT3 and Z06 are serious cars that would spank a stock Evo.
Mar 29, 2006, 09:40 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by termsheet
I was at Spring Mountain this weekend.
We brought the black Evo that took second at the Buttonwillow time attack (see http://www.superstreetonline.com/eve...ack/index.html ). This car was tuned by DB and has a built 2.3l with a GT35, AEM, race suspension, big brakes, etc. We ran 285 Hoosiers. This car made 500 hp on race gas, 400 on the pump. Other than pulling out a lot of weight, this car has most of the "big" mods.
We also brought a white evo with stock turbo, 10.5 hotside, 272s, intake, exhaust, tune, MBC, coilovers. We ran 255 RA1s. This car has not been dynoed but probably makes 300 hp. This car has the basic mods.
Both cars have race seats, harnesses, etc.
There were several Corvettes, 6 GT3s, a few Elises, 2 Exiges, several M3s, a Caymen S, a 911 turbo S, a 360, etc.
It is tough to judge how fast a car is unless it is driven by the same person on the same day, same track. I passed many of those cars many times but that's because the drivers had less experience. It says nothing about how capable those cars are on the track. A first timer on the track versus a pro driver is like a high school basketball player playing against Shaq or Kobe. There is so much difference from driver to driver that you can't compare cars with different drivers.
Back to the answer. I did ride and drive in several of the cars as an instructor. My opinion is that the GT3s (most had RA1s or Hoosiers) had much better brakes and quite a bit more stright line pull than the white Evo (basic mods). The white Evo seemed slightly faster in the corners. I didn't drive any of the new z06s but they looked quite capable to me. As for the black Evo, about the only thing that pulled harder was the 600 hp 911 turbo s. That car was faster in a straight line than the black Evo.
IMO an Evo with basic mods like our white car would have slower lap times than both a 911 or z06 on the same rubber (with the same driver). The black car would take them both, but it is heavily modified. That said, there was a gt3 with moton club sports and basic mods and it seemed very fast. At Buttonwillow I bet it was a 54-56 car. The black car ran a 1:52.5
On the drag strip it might be a different story, but on a road race course the GT3 and Z06 are serious cars that would spank a stock Evo.
We brought the black Evo that took second at the Buttonwillow time attack (see http://www.superstreetonline.com/eve...ack/index.html ). This car was tuned by DB and has a built 2.3l with a GT35, AEM, race suspension, big brakes, etc. We ran 285 Hoosiers. This car made 500 hp on race gas, 400 on the pump. Other than pulling out a lot of weight, this car has most of the "big" mods.
We also brought a white evo with stock turbo, 10.5 hotside, 272s, intake, exhaust, tune, MBC, coilovers. We ran 255 RA1s. This car has not been dynoed but probably makes 300 hp. This car has the basic mods.
Both cars have race seats, harnesses, etc.
There were several Corvettes, 6 GT3s, a few Elises, 2 Exiges, several M3s, a Caymen S, a 911 turbo S, a 360, etc.
It is tough to judge how fast a car is unless it is driven by the same person on the same day, same track. I passed many of those cars many times but that's because the drivers had less experience. It says nothing about how capable those cars are on the track. A first timer on the track versus a pro driver is like a high school basketball player playing against Shaq or Kobe. There is so much difference from driver to driver that you can't compare cars with different drivers.
Back to the answer. I did ride and drive in several of the cars as an instructor. My opinion is that the GT3s (most had RA1s or Hoosiers) had much better brakes and quite a bit more stright line pull than the white Evo (basic mods). The white Evo seemed slightly faster in the corners. I didn't drive any of the new z06s but they looked quite capable to me. As for the black Evo, about the only thing that pulled harder was the 600 hp 911 turbo s. That car was faster in a straight line than the black Evo.
IMO an Evo with basic mods like our white car would have slower lap times than both a 911 or z06 on the same rubber (with the same driver). The black car would take them both, but it is heavily modified. That said, there was a gt3 with moton club sports and basic mods and it seemed very fast. At Buttonwillow I bet it was a 54-56 car. The black car ran a 1:52.5
On the drag strip it might be a different story, but on a road race course the GT3 and Z06 are serious cars that would spank a stock Evo.
Mar 29, 2006, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by touge300
And what is wrong with spring leaf suspensions? explain...
- Range. They don't move very much so if your travel is long you'll need to mount the springs further from the wheels, so they have to be harder and any error will be amplified more. They can be designed to have a longer range, but it's not very easy to keep the stiffness constant over a long range. Specailly if you don't want them heavy.
- Weight. If we're talking about plain old steel type.
- Space. They're flat, but they need room front and back, which isn't always there. Whereas the room in the wheel well (coil springs) are always there, more or less.
- Stiffness/space. They're a little difficult if you want to mount them anywhere with a lot of stiffness (if you mount longitudinally).
- Increased inertia. There's more of it to move, and IIRC they're more prone to resonance than coils (lower nat.freq)
- I'd say they're more difficult to change. But then I don't know how they're mounted in the Z06.
Last edited by x838nwy; Mar 29, 2006 at 10:18 PM.
Mar 30, 2006, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by x838nwy
Well, these aren't ting that are 'wrong' but more disadvantages:
- Range. They don't move very much so if your travel is long you'll need to mount the springs further from the wheels, so they have to be harder and any error will be amplified more. They can be designed to have a longer range, but it's not very easy to keep the stiffness constant over a long range. Specailly if you don't want them heavy.
- Weight. If we're talking about plain old steel type.
- Space. They're flat, but they need room front and back, which isn't always there. Whereas the room in the wheel well (coil springs) are always there, more or less.
- Stiffness/space. They're a little difficult if you want to mount them anywhere with a lot of stiffness (if you mount longitudinally).
- Increased inertia. There's more of it to move, and IIRC they're more prone to resonance than coils (lower nat.freq)
- I'd say they're more difficult to change. But then I don't know how they're mounted in the Z06.
Mar 30, 2006, 03:50 AM
#87
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c5 zo6- traded it for the mr.its tough to explain.just wasnt feelin the z06. 
i really caught hell from the z06 forum for comin to the "dark side"-- 
i really caught hell from the z06 forum for comin to the "dark side"--
Last edited by triple6; Mar 30, 2006 at 03:52 AM.
Mar 30, 2006, 05:20 AM
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hi guys.
a bit of backround -- i'm a liscenced racer and also an instructor. my DD is a very lightly modded 2003 EVO; i race a H1 Honda Civic and a PS-1 (PTD) Ford Probe. i vintage race a Lotus Super Seven (when its not broken down!). i've got lots of track experience, so here's my thoughts:
1. say you are set on doing this with the EVO. go buy a 2003 with some miles on it (+$20k). first item of business is you must try to get the weight down on the EVO. its 250+ lbs heavier than the new Zoh. gotta get the weight off it if you are serious. this would mean removal of the complete interior, lexan-ing the windows, remove AC, remove moonroof (if equipped), remove stereo, carpeting, sound insulation, rear seats, etc etc. say maybe -350 lbs. this is free performance (+$0).
2. cars going this fast on track need safety devices. say +130 lbs at least for a full cage, seat(s), and belts (+$3k).
3. as all the others said, to be competitive, you will need a great suspension (+$4k), bigger wheels & tires (+$2k), and a big boost in power (i think 400 whp would be a good target for safety reasons) (+$8k). will also need to add in big cooling radiator, oversize oil cooler, complete gauge complement (all total roughly +$2k). probably will want to add in an even bigger brake package than the standard brembos (+$3k). add a front diff and a clutch (+$3k).
i'm still probably leaving out lots of things (leaving the tranny stock, stock aero, etc. but the above car would put you in the ball park, considering it would be well driven. rough total cost, car plus everything = $45k. and i think that is probably a low estimate, but reasonably do-able. you will definitely have, at this time, a very fast, great track car. with, hopefully, good reliability.
but, this is not the way i'd go if i had $45k to spend on a track toy/occasional street car ride. one of my instructor buddies built the following car recently:
1. he started with a nice, rust free Porsche 914.
2. he took the car to a race chassis fabricator. they stripped it, built an integral cage (beautiful cage!) and tube framed the back half of the car. built a custom cradle for the new engine/tranny. strengthened the entire car with gussets and braces as needed.
3. they lightly "chopped" the top and laid back the windshield. they slightly flared the fenders. all the work was done in metal and looks factory perfect.
4. they put in lightweight windows. they stripped out the interior and put in race seats and harnesses. they redid the interior in suede and aluminum, and retained the factory dash/gauges, etc.
5. they installed a bone stock LS-1 motor with Pantera 5 speed tranny. engine has custom made collectors/exhaust. cold air intake. reflashed ecu. otherwise bone stock. 330 whp.
6. made a custom cooling system (nascar style radiator up front with integral oil cooler.
7. they custom built a hybrid racing suspension of some type. 930 turbo brakes. larger wheels and tires all around.
the above car weighs 2200 lbs with driver, wet, ready to go. it starts instantly and idles like glass. it is stone reliable. it goes like a ROCKET. i mean GOES!. it handles and stops unbelievable (wide, low, mid-engine, well balanced, and most importantly, LIGHT!). he has been asked many times "why not put cams in it; why not a blower, why not make 450-500 hp, why why why). he says "it doesn't need more power". in my opinion, it doesn't need more. why sacrifice any reliability for more power that you really don't need? it runs really cool and is very easy on tires and brakes. its wonderful!
his car could be duplicated for between $40k and $50k. that is the way i'd go if i were contemplating doing what you want to do. it came out immaculate; it's so classy; the bodywork is great and understated. as you walk up to it, you would probably think "that looks like a bad-*** 914-6". that is, until he started it up and you heard the "lub-dub, lub-dub, lub-dub" from the pipes.....
anyway, thats my $0.02.
todd
PS don't get me wrong, i love my EVO. just my thoughts on what i'd do if i was in your shoes!!!!
a bit of backround -- i'm a liscenced racer and also an instructor. my DD is a very lightly modded 2003 EVO; i race a H1 Honda Civic and a PS-1 (PTD) Ford Probe. i vintage race a Lotus Super Seven (when its not broken down!). i've got lots of track experience, so here's my thoughts:
1. say you are set on doing this with the EVO. go buy a 2003 with some miles on it (+$20k). first item of business is you must try to get the weight down on the EVO. its 250+ lbs heavier than the new Zoh. gotta get the weight off it if you are serious. this would mean removal of the complete interior, lexan-ing the windows, remove AC, remove moonroof (if equipped), remove stereo, carpeting, sound insulation, rear seats, etc etc. say maybe -350 lbs. this is free performance (+$0).
2. cars going this fast on track need safety devices. say +130 lbs at least for a full cage, seat(s), and belts (+$3k).
3. as all the others said, to be competitive, you will need a great suspension (+$4k), bigger wheels & tires (+$2k), and a big boost in power (i think 400 whp would be a good target for safety reasons) (+$8k). will also need to add in big cooling radiator, oversize oil cooler, complete gauge complement (all total roughly +$2k). probably will want to add in an even bigger brake package than the standard brembos (+$3k). add a front diff and a clutch (+$3k).
i'm still probably leaving out lots of things (leaving the tranny stock, stock aero, etc. but the above car would put you in the ball park, considering it would be well driven. rough total cost, car plus everything = $45k. and i think that is probably a low estimate, but reasonably do-able. you will definitely have, at this time, a very fast, great track car. with, hopefully, good reliability.
but, this is not the way i'd go if i had $45k to spend on a track toy/occasional street car ride. one of my instructor buddies built the following car recently:
1. he started with a nice, rust free Porsche 914.
2. he took the car to a race chassis fabricator. they stripped it, built an integral cage (beautiful cage!) and tube framed the back half of the car. built a custom cradle for the new engine/tranny. strengthened the entire car with gussets and braces as needed.
3. they lightly "chopped" the top and laid back the windshield. they slightly flared the fenders. all the work was done in metal and looks factory perfect.
4. they put in lightweight windows. they stripped out the interior and put in race seats and harnesses. they redid the interior in suede and aluminum, and retained the factory dash/gauges, etc.
5. they installed a bone stock LS-1 motor with Pantera 5 speed tranny. engine has custom made collectors/exhaust. cold air intake. reflashed ecu. otherwise bone stock. 330 whp.
6. made a custom cooling system (nascar style radiator up front with integral oil cooler.
7. they custom built a hybrid racing suspension of some type. 930 turbo brakes. larger wheels and tires all around.
the above car weighs 2200 lbs with driver, wet, ready to go. it starts instantly and idles like glass. it is stone reliable. it goes like a ROCKET. i mean GOES!. it handles and stops unbelievable (wide, low, mid-engine, well balanced, and most importantly, LIGHT!). he has been asked many times "why not put cams in it; why not a blower, why not make 450-500 hp, why why why). he says "it doesn't need more power". in my opinion, it doesn't need more. why sacrifice any reliability for more power that you really don't need? it runs really cool and is very easy on tires and brakes. its wonderful!
his car could be duplicated for between $40k and $50k. that is the way i'd go if i were contemplating doing what you want to do. it came out immaculate; it's so classy; the bodywork is great and understated. as you walk up to it, you would probably think "that looks like a bad-*** 914-6". that is, until he started it up and you heard the "lub-dub, lub-dub, lub-dub" from the pipes.....
anyway, thats my $0.02.
todd
PS don't get me wrong, i love my EVO. just my thoughts on what i'd do if i was in your shoes!!!!
Mar 30, 2006, 05:40 AM
#89
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.... rofl.... Guys please do your research.. I dont believe this gentleman has asked us how much it would cost to mod a car all over the world. We have great tuning experts right here in the us. For the cost of 8-10k he can accomplish extreme goals with a VIII GSR and kill most supercars. To beat a C-6 ( drag wise) 11's would be needed. Taking this (even though your not interested in drag ) most evo's can pull low-mid 11's with 454+awhp, which is extremely accomplishable. I dont know about you guys but i havent seen a problem with this hp range as far as failure rate other than few guys who over-abuse their cars. I speak of the guys who like to beat their car when just driving to work, and racing any civic/mustang/trans am/ bike that comes their way.
To achieve numbers you want to expect, it would be best to see an experienced tuning shop ( which this site has a lot of tuning shops listed). You can pm them this questions and they would more then lilkely be the gladest to help you. Make sure you research on each shops background first as i've found some can be shady, most are very proud and extremely talented on this site.
I wish you the best of luck, and like no1 has yet said to you , Welcome to the Evo family bro.
You'll find its one of the bests!
To achieve numbers you want to expect, it would be best to see an experienced tuning shop ( which this site has a lot of tuning shops listed). You can pm them this questions and they would more then lilkely be the gladest to help you. Make sure you research on each shops background first as i've found some can be shady, most are very proud and extremely talented on this site.
I wish you the best of luck, and like no1 has yet said to you , Welcome to the Evo family bro.
You'll find its one of the bests!
Mar 30, 2006, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ThewondererEVO
.... rofl.... Guys please do your research.. I dont believe this gentleman has asked us how much it would cost to mod a car all over the world. We have great tuning experts right here in the us. For the cost of 8-10k he can accomplish extreme goals with a VIII GSR and kill most supercars. To beat a C-6 ( drag wise) 11's would be needed. Taking this (even though your not interested in drag ) most evo's can pull low-mid 11's with 454+awhp, which is extremely accomplishable. I dont know about you guys but i havent seen a problem with this hp range as far as failure rate other than few guys who over-abuse their cars. I speak of the guys who like to beat their car when just driving to work, and racing any civic/mustang/trans am/ bike that comes their way.
To achieve numbers you want to expect, it would be best to see an experienced tuning shop ( which this site has a lot of tuning shops listed). You can pm them this questions and they would more then lilkely be the gladest to help you. Make sure you research on each shops background first as i've found some can be shady, most are very proud and extremely talented on this site.
I wish you the best of luck, and like no1 has yet said to you , Welcome to the Evo family bro.
You'll find its one of the bests!
To achieve numbers you want to expect, it would be best to see an experienced tuning shop ( which this site has a lot of tuning shops listed). You can pm them this questions and they would more then lilkely be the gladest to help you. Make sure you research on each shops background first as i've found some can be shady, most are very proud and extremely talented on this site.
I wish you the best of luck, and like no1 has yet said to you , Welcome to the Evo family bro.
You'll find its one of the bests!
I did speak with a tuner in southern california that sets up Evos for the track, but I forgot his name and number. He appeared very knowledgeable with suspensions and track preparation. I want to say he liked using a Canadian brand suspension with three initials. DMS possibly? I think the guy was in the Apple Valley/Inland Empire region. Does this tuner sound familiar to anyone?
Most of all, thanks for the welcome. It is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Cerberus; Mar 30, 2006 at 06:55 AM.