Third Gear Grind.....Are Evo's Junk??
Wow, get all that anger out? Ok, good.
First off, yes on having both transmissions apart, thanks for asking. I also agree with your common component comment, but I do believe the syncros are different.
Now, back to my point. First off, my comment about motor oil has nothing to do with what weight to run in your car, genious. I was merely stating that its thiner than the OEM transmission fluid, which by your original statement would mean it lubricates better. I also agree there are better oils to run in the 4G63, but that has NOTHING to do with this thread.
You didnt answer my question about classes dealing with chemical properties. Again my main issue was you said the OEM fluid is "too thick and doest provide enough lubrication." My point was thickness does not have a direct correlation with lubrication characteristics. Gear lubrication is much more complex than the thickness of the lube, but Id guess you dont understand that.
Your comment about OEM not being best is laughable. Some aftermarket companies offer a good product, but many times the parts we add to our cars have not gone through durability testing. Other times we remove components that were proven to be necessary during engineering and r&d, and then wonder why something broke. OEM is not always best, but most of the time it is in terms of durability and longevity. (point out the stock clutch, go ahead, its a wear item that Mitsu designed to be the weak link in the drive train so knuckle heads that drop their clutch at 7000 rpms destroy a clutch, not a more expensive transmission. Think of it as a fuse)
Refering to OEM fluids as being inferior is even funnier. Yea, you know, Mitsu chose crap fluid for their transmissions just so more problems would surface. Give me a break. They chose a cost efffective lube that provided adequate cooling, lubrication, and shock characteristics. Go read the original Mtsu TSB regarding SyncroMESH in DSM vehicles. Notchy gearbox feel is the complaint that it solves, nothing else.
You completely failed to realize why I said you were spreading mis-information. BY the way, nothing I have said is misinformation. I stated people have had problems with Syncromesh and OEM, and that I and others I have direct contact with have never had an issue. I also drew upon my knowledge of gear lubricants from college and working at an engineering firm. But hey, you just keep spouting off about how the OEM fluid doesnt lubricate well.
First off, yes on having both transmissions apart, thanks for asking. I also agree with your common component comment, but I do believe the syncros are different.
Now, back to my point. First off, my comment about motor oil has nothing to do with what weight to run in your car, genious. I was merely stating that its thiner than the OEM transmission fluid, which by your original statement would mean it lubricates better. I also agree there are better oils to run in the 4G63, but that has NOTHING to do with this thread.
You didnt answer my question about classes dealing with chemical properties. Again my main issue was you said the OEM fluid is "too thick and doest provide enough lubrication." My point was thickness does not have a direct correlation with lubrication characteristics. Gear lubrication is much more complex than the thickness of the lube, but Id guess you dont understand that.
Your comment about OEM not being best is laughable. Some aftermarket companies offer a good product, but many times the parts we add to our cars have not gone through durability testing. Other times we remove components that were proven to be necessary during engineering and r&d, and then wonder why something broke. OEM is not always best, but most of the time it is in terms of durability and longevity. (point out the stock clutch, go ahead, its a wear item that Mitsu designed to be the weak link in the drive train so knuckle heads that drop their clutch at 7000 rpms destroy a clutch, not a more expensive transmission. Think of it as a fuse)
Refering to OEM fluids as being inferior is even funnier. Yea, you know, Mitsu chose crap fluid for their transmissions just so more problems would surface. Give me a break. They chose a cost efffective lube that provided adequate cooling, lubrication, and shock characteristics. Go read the original Mtsu TSB regarding SyncroMESH in DSM vehicles. Notchy gearbox feel is the complaint that it solves, nothing else.
You completely failed to realize why I said you were spreading mis-information. BY the way, nothing I have said is misinformation. I stated people have had problems with Syncromesh and OEM, and that I and others I have direct contact with have never had an issue. I also drew upon my knowledge of gear lubricants from college and working at an engineering firm. But hey, you just keep spouting off about how the OEM fluid doesnt lubricate well.
Btw-I personally think that BG II is alot better than Synchromesh, however both are superior to the OEM fluid.
Last edited by sonicnofadz; Feb 28, 2007 at 11:26 AM.
OEM fluid doesn't lubricate well when cold. Thats a fact. I mentioned engine oils because that is an example of a OEM recommended fluid that many people choose not to use. Having torn apart numerous DSM trannies, synchromesh seems to cause less wear. Why? Because it lubricates better than the OEM fluid at all temperature ranges. You can say what you want, but who are all these people who are having problems with Synchromesh? Hmmmm...yeah can't be too many people, because Synchromesh is one of the best fluids for the Evo transmission. There is NO evidence to suggest otherwise. I know people who have been running synchromesh in their transmission for over 20,000 miles without any incident. This is not misinformation. This is a solid hardcore fact. Do a search, there tons of people successfully using these transmission oils in their Evos. I have taken a few years of mechanical engineering at the university of MD, however I have not done any testing on the OEM fluids or Penzoil Synchromesh, and frankly, none is needed. People have already been using this oil without any problems at all. The result? Better shifting and no failures. Yes I'm claiming that this is indeed a better fluid than the OEM fluid. Why do I have the right to claim this? Because thousands of people are using it with great success. Where is the proof that Synchromesh causes failures? Where is it? Oh wait, there is none! =( Still don't believe me? Why don't you call TRE or Shep Racing and see what they have to say. If you think you know more about Evo and DSM transmissions than TRE or Shep, you must be kidding yourself.
Btw-I personally think that BG II is alot better than Synchromesh, however both are superior to the OEM fluid.
Btw-I personally think that BG II is alot better than Synchromesh, however both are superior to the OEM fluid.
Also, please provide the proof that syncromesh "provides better lubrication at ALL temperature ranges" Any bench tests? I didnt think so. What you fail to realize is just because syncromesh is slick and allows the syncros to work better (hence less crunch) that doesnt mean its lubricating THE GEARS any more effectively. (or cooling or cushioning, both important for any grease or lube for gears)
Once again I fully agree that syncromesh does lessen gear crunch. I do feel however it does not provide adequate cooling or gear protection at high temperatures seen on track days or demanding autocrosses. All syncromesh is doing is covering up poor performing syncros. Its a band-aid, period.
A few years of mechanical engineering eh? Try a full degree from Purdue. Ah yes, 20,000 miles is definately the acid test to see if it will have any negative effects. Just like every other arguement you get into, theres no winning. Im done even trying. Take care, and good luck in your endevors.
By the way, when did the OEM fluid cause any failures? Im not refering to poor syncro performance, I mean a complete failure; completely caused by the fluid that Mitsubishi designed the transmission to work with...
Last edited by Tristar; Feb 28, 2007 at 12:37 PM.
You never stipulated when cold, you made a blanket statement "the stock fluid is thick and doesnt lubricate well. Also, I provided a link a few posts ago to people who had issues with syncromesh, forgive me if I dont bend over backwards to try to find it for you AGAIN.
Also, please provide the proof that syncromesh "provides better lubrication at ALL temperature ranges" Any bench tests? I didnt think so. What you fail to realize is just because syncromesh is slick and allows the syncros to work better (hence less crunch) that doesnt mean its lubricating THE GEARS any more effectively. (or cooling or cushioning, both important for any grease or lube for gears)
Once again I fully agree that syncromesh does lessen gear crunch. I do feel however it does not provide adequate cooling or gear protection at high temperatures seen on track days or demanding autocrosses. All syncromesh is doing is covering up poor performing syncros. Its a band-aid, period.
A few years of mechanical engineering eh? Try a full degree from Purdue. Ah yes, 20,000 miles is definately the acid test to see if it will have any negative effects. Just like every other arguement you get into, theres no winning. Im done even trying. Take care, and good luck in your endevors.
By the way, when did the OEM fluid cause any failures? Im not refering to poor syncro performance, I mean a complete failure; completely caused by the fluid that Mitsubishi designed the transmission to work with...
Also, please provide the proof that syncromesh "provides better lubrication at ALL temperature ranges" Any bench tests? I didnt think so. What you fail to realize is just because syncromesh is slick and allows the syncros to work better (hence less crunch) that doesnt mean its lubricating THE GEARS any more effectively. (or cooling or cushioning, both important for any grease or lube for gears)
Once again I fully agree that syncromesh does lessen gear crunch. I do feel however it does not provide adequate cooling or gear protection at high temperatures seen on track days or demanding autocrosses. All syncromesh is doing is covering up poor performing syncros. Its a band-aid, period.
A few years of mechanical engineering eh? Try a full degree from Purdue. Ah yes, 20,000 miles is definately the acid test to see if it will have any negative effects. Just like every other arguement you get into, theres no winning. Im done even trying. Take care, and good luck in your endevors.
By the way, when did the OEM fluid cause any failures? Im not refering to poor syncro performance, I mean a complete failure; completely caused by the fluid that Mitsubishi designed the transmission to work with...
Last edited by sonicnofadz; Feb 28, 2007 at 01:01 PM.
Update:
The Mitsu tech line is now having dealers change the tranny fluid using BG Syncroshift II before they open up the tranny to repair syncros. They've gotten enough calls to resort to trying this first. Therefore the dealer changed my tranny fluid to Syncroshift II today to try and stop my third gear grind. TO ALL YOU EVO OWNER'S WITH NOCHY SHIFTING. THAT IS NORMAL. I'M TALKING ABOUT GRINDING, WHICH FEELS AND SOUNDS A WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT THAN A NOTCHY SHIFT. And by the way, Syncroshift II may take away some of the notchyness of shifts, but it didn’t take away my grind.....so I’ll give it a day and call them back to have syncros and whatever else replaced. If anything, you can feel the grind more now, as some of the notchy shifting has lessened.
The Mitsu tech line is now having dealers change the tranny fluid using BG Syncroshift II before they open up the tranny to repair syncros. They've gotten enough calls to resort to trying this first. Therefore the dealer changed my tranny fluid to Syncroshift II today to try and stop my third gear grind. TO ALL YOU EVO OWNER'S WITH NOCHY SHIFTING. THAT IS NORMAL. I'M TALKING ABOUT GRINDING, WHICH FEELS AND SOUNDS A WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT THAN A NOTCHY SHIFT. And by the way, Syncroshift II may take away some of the notchyness of shifts, but it didn’t take away my grind.....so I’ll give it a day and call them back to have syncros and whatever else replaced. If anything, you can feel the grind more now, as some of the notchy shifting has lessened.
Purdue? Wow I thought they only processed chicken meat, interesting...again you say synchromesh provides lubrication for synchronizer engagement however it is not good enough for driven gears...wow thats a bold statement...considering the best evo and dsm transmission builders in the world recommend it. You "feel" it is not adequate? I think over 15 years of usage of this fluid in a similar transmission negates what you "feel". You have **** poor evidence for your claims and they go directly against what Shep and TRE say, who are (for all intents and purposes) Evo transmission gods. You are done trying to explain this because your grounds for arguing this topic are baseless. People, don't listen to this crap. If you fear for your warranty, stick with the OEM fluid. If you prefer better performance and don't care for the warranty, go with the fluids described above. Again, if you don't believe me, call shep and TRE right now and ask them the difference between the OEM fluid and synchroshift or synchromesh. They build transmissions with the full knowledge that they will be put through high temperature road racing conditions. These tranny builders may not have full mechanical engineering degrees (from purdue even!) but they sure have done alot actual testing and building unlike Tristar who blindly "sticks with OEM" because thats what he was told to do.
And again, all those people who had large amounts of metal shavings in their trannies after using syncromesh must be lying...
Edit:
Heres a post by John at TRE. Nowhere does it say the OEM fluid does a poor job at lubricating. They simply recommend GL4 fluids, ones that meet specifications for syncromesh. No where in this post is a brand stated, nor does he discount the OEM fluid.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...1&postcount=48
Heres the post with individuals who have had issues when using Syncromesh
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ght=syncromesh
Last edited by Tristar; Feb 28, 2007 at 01:21 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 132
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From: Palo Alto
Why would Mitsu simply make up their viscosity standards for transmissions they've spent thousands of hours developing?
Why would you use a fluid that falls below that standard?
Also, even I know about Purdue's mechanical engineering program and how good it is and I have nothing to do with the engineering field.
Why would you use a fluid that falls below that standard?
Also, even I know about Purdue's mechanical engineering program and how good it is and I have nothing to do with the engineering field.
I was just poking fun at Purdue =) But seriously, metal shavings in the transmission are inevitable regardless of the fluid used. Nothing is going to change that. For road racing purposes I do recommend BG synchroshift II ,which is a fully synthetic oil with a much higher temperature capability. The OEM fluid (to my knowledge) is based on a mineral oil.
I have just called Shep and TRE both. Shep recommended using Redline MT-90 for the Evo, and Synchromesh for the DSM and didn't recommend running OEM fluid for road racing. However, I spoke to TRE and had an in depth conversation about what the best gear oil should be for road racing, and he recommended using BG synchroshift II for the Evo, or (get this) the OEM GL4 6 speed fluid (for the 5 speed!). He says the 6 speed fluid is thin enough to allow better gear engagement for the 5 speed, however the stuff costs like $80/gallon. He mentioned that several road racing Evo's he has built transmissions have successfully used these fluids.
Last edited by sonicnofadz; Feb 28, 2007 at 01:51 PM.
I have just called Shep and TRE both. Shep recommended using Redline MT-90 for the Evo, and Synchromesh for the DSM and didn't recommend running OEM fluid for road racing. However, I spoke to TRE and had an in depth conversation about what the best gear oil should be for road racing, and he recommended using BG synchroshift II for the Evo, or (get this) the OEM GL4 6 speed fluid (for the 5 speed!). He says the 6 speed fluid is thin enough to allow better gear engagement for the 5 speed, however the stuff costs like $80/gallon. He mentioned that several road racing Evo's he has built transmissions have successfully used these fluids.
I tried many different types of fluids. Synchromesh is good but it doesn't last long. most of metal shavings were from synchromesh. But if you like to change it often, synchromesh provides smoothest shift them all. Now, I gotta try 6 speed MR fluid. I was wondering why MR trannies were much smoother than mine and there was a secrete!
I have just called Shep and TRE both. Shep recommended using Redline MT-90 for the Evo, and Synchromesh for the DSM and didn't recommend running OEM fluid for road racing. However, I spoke to TRE and had an in depth conversation about what the best gear oil should be for road racing, and he recommended using BG synchroshift II for the Evo, or (get this) the OEM GL4 6 speed fluid (for the 5 speed!). He says the 6 speed fluid is thin enough to allow better gear engagement for the 5 speed, however the stuff costs like $80/gallon. He mentioned that several road racing Evo's he has built transmissions have successfully used these fluids.
Well, I think that maybe for extreme road racing, synchromesh might not be the best of choices. It is based off a mineral oil, and probably has poor high temperature performance, which could lead to catastrophe in "***** to the wall" racing applications (i.e. racing on a circuit for a full hour or longer). However, personally I will continue to use Synchromesh on the street, but for the track or autoX, I will make the switch to BG II. The OEM 6 speed gear oil just comes to me as a complete shock, and I would be willing to try it if the price wasn't so prohibitive. At any rate, sorry for the OT rant but I just despise the molasses like crappiness of the oem 5 speed fluid. The bottom line->If you have a brand new car and its grinding, there is a problem with the transmission and guess what, its the dealership's problem. Tristar, if you didn't live so far away I'd definitely love to argue in person over a beer or two.