Papi4baby

iTrader: (1)

I would call Mitsu and tell them see what they say.

I always do the second schedule if i can. I did it with my SRT4 and 20K miles of problem free. Granted i used AMSOIL and also their filter. Even after 5k the oil was still not black. I am calling Mitsubishi on monday(i tried before but they close at 5) and will ask about the 3k service, last thing i want is a failed engine. Even if is covered, i will probably get stuck for god knows how long waiting for the repairs.

Og Neon

iTrader: (1)

Papi, the thing you have to understand is you have to prove to Mitsu that the engine failure was their fault. 5k mile oil changes are typical for N/A cars that aren't performance oriented. Even though you don't drive you car hard it is still boosting, and boost is harder on an engine then N/A. 3k mile oil changes is typically the industry standard for a performance driven motor because of the highter compression levels. Higher compression forces more bypass into the oil breaking it down faster.
As for the SRT i had one prior too...20k miles problem free isn't a feat. 60-70 and up is where your TLC starts to pay off.

To the original Poster...i am in the same boat as you...my oil is BLACK real soon after an oil change. That was the first thing i notice when i changed intial oil at 1500. I felt guilt for waiting so long because it came out so bad and i could smell the gas. I still get the gas smell at oil changes. This will be a problem in the future i think.

Papi4baby

iTrader: (1)

I do understand all that. Did you read the links i posted?

P.S. If you are using Mobil 1, mine in the SRT would also be black a bit after 1k. As soon as i saw that, i changed it to AMSOIL.

STi2EvoX

People, even if you don't feel like making a post, it takes 2 seconds to fill out the poll. I am forwarding this to a friend that works at my local mitsu dealership, and the more poll results, the better. He is going to call mitsu corporate in the morning and tell them that they need to have this looked at, and is going to be including a link to this thread for them to read as a reference. Hopefully, mitsu will realize that a new reflash is in order to lean out the A/F ratios to resolve the issue and actually get rid of the hesitation issues in the process, because that last reflash wasn't good enough.

txfoster

I noticed this after the first oil change. I'm an oil change freak and do it about every 2k i just assumed that it was a high pressure charged motor and would do this anyway.

My 911 runs less boost but you can still smell fuel to some extent in the oil. I have had analsys done on it and always had a slight fuel dilution and runs GREAT to this day!

fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

I wouldn't worry too much about your oil's color as far as fuel getting into it. If it does get in there, all you need to do is smell it. As far as how it can get into it, pretty much a bad ring seat or up through the head( with carbs, they could also be the reason, but I've never seen FI fill the cylinders with fuel like a stuck float could). Usually with cars with really low miles, it's the rings. Bad break-in ny the owner is usually the culprit. In the rare occasion that the factory's at fault, it usually is from incompatible cylinder/liner and ring materials. I've seen one instance of a bad ring seat from the factory, but as with the aforementioned reason, numerous vehicles usually are effected by this.
Basically if yours is the only one, or one of an insanely low number, it's your responsibility. I wouldn't worry about it however, as if it comes to the point where you have to have your motor torn down, if it's your fault, the cylinders will be glazed, and possibly the cross-hatch will still look fresh(from the bad break-in), which is easy to spot. This means the evidence they would have against you would basically be indisputable, so you'd know for certain they weren't pulling one over on you.

althepa

I have to question this...with synthetic oil, this just is not the case. If it was, then we would have been changing regular dino oil every 1k or 2k miles on turbocharged cars for years, which we haven't. 3k for "severe" use was the typical guideline back when everything used dino oil.

Turbos and high compression scenarios aren't new - they've been happily dealing with 3k dino oil changes for decades. And turbo engines have low static compression ratios that only spike when under boost - if driven normally, they could arguably demonstrate lower average stress upon the oil, which again, synthetic handles with much greater ease.

Changing synthetic at 5k is already being conservative, turbo or no. Look at Porsche's change schedule for some of its cars - up to 10k miles between changes. They are not alone in these long schedules; synthetic just doesn't break down quickly at all.

Changing at 3k is flushing money down the drain. If the oil is getting contaminated with fuel, that's a separate and serious problem that needs fixing. But going to a dino oil type change schedule with synthetic is a ludicrous response.

Yes, I am a long-time lurker considering an Evo X as my DD. I mainly work on old and not-so-old Porsches, about 25 yrs of experience wrenching on performance cars.

KPerez

Guys, I think before we go any further there is a need to get some hard numbers here. Using our noses as a quantitative tool is not very accurate and certainly does not constitute sufficient evidence. What we need is some actual testing to quantify the actual fuel contamination/oil dilution and have some reference against which to compare. Mitsu was aware of this problem as per their recommendations during cold start conditions so it is reasonable, given the dire consequences, that they are aware of this potential problem. Regardless of my potential niavete, some testing of the oil after changing at 1000mi, 2000 and 3000mi, just prior to change to see (1) the concentration of fuel and (2) its' increase over time is needed to, as a bare minimum, accurately quanitfy this potential problem.
For me, I am uncertain what engine/vehicle we should use as a comparo to the 4B11. The 4G63? The reason I suggest this is because I ran my old 350whp DSM with OEM internals for >250K on synthetic@3Kmi change intervals with no longevity problems. What would be nice to know is a measure of the fuel in this engine relative to the 4B11.
So I would like to request Doc Oil if he would have any suggestions as to a testing company that we could use to have such testing done as well as the specific constituents to be measured that would quantify the extent of fuel dilution.

Later, Ken

Papi4baby

iTrader: (1)

Thank you, unless you are in busy stop and go traffic or doing tracking in the weekends. Changing the oil @ 5K is enough.

Look guys, i have no problem if you want to change your oil @ 2K, 1K or 500 miles. Knock your self's out. But don't come here trying to force feed everyone else, that it is the correct thing to do.

Hi Ken, the problem is we have no baseline. The company that would do the oil samples would need a baseline from Mitsubishi. And there might not even be one.

STi2EvoX

I appreciate you trying to help, but did you even read my first post? You should've seen from the 3rd or 4th paragraph that I'm well aware of what causes this. It's definitely not a bad break in, as I know how to properly break in a car. Too many people drive the car too gently on break in, and too many drive the car too hard. The trick is to vary the load and give heavy load early on while staying under the manufacturer's recommended rpm limit for the break in, which in the case of the X is 5k.

If you don't give enough load in the early miles of the engine, the rings don't have enough pressure to seat well against the cylinder walls and wear into the cross hatching. I assure you that I broke my car in properly. Now, you say you wouldn't worry abotu fuel getting into the oil because if it does, I would be able to smell it. AGAIN, DID YOU EVEN READ MY FIRST POST? WHY DO YOU THINK I STARTED THIS THREAD?

STi2EvoX

Uh, papi... what do you mean we need a baseline from mitsubishi to compare to oil samples analyzed? The baseline should be a big fat ZERO. There isn't supposed to be ANY fuel in the oil at all, but it isn't uncommon for a tiny amount to be found in the oil of a high compression NA or high boost turbo car. The problem here is that it looks and smells like there is more than a little. As I said in my OP, I am going to be sending my oil off for analysis when it hits 3k, on this change interval, though I'm not sure if I even want to push it that far. I might spend the money to do 2 tests. One at 1500, which is coming up very soon, and then one at 3000. This way, if the fuel content is at dangerous level already, then that tells me that going to 3k would be dangerous. I'll let you guys know as soon as I get the results in.

Papi4baby

iTrader: (1)

Sorry bud, but no it would not be 0. There's crap in the oil even when is new. It is meassure in PPM( parts per million). And im sure some fuel by pass is allow, how much is what we don't know. That's the baseline im talking about. And even if some is getting by, how much damage is it doing???? That's another base line that would be need it to find out if is hurting the oil, which then would be hurting the engine.

STi2EvoX

Papi, I don't think you understood what I was saying. The point is that there is not supposed to be ANY fuel in oil, but it is unavoidable for some blow by to occur in a high performance engine. According to oil analysis experts, if you have even 2 percent fuel in your oil then you are at critical levels where oil will start to break down and not provide protection. There is no baseline needed from mitsu to understand this. Anything under 1% is tolerable, but it is preferable to have as little as possible. This is based on the properties of oil and the effect that gasoline has on it, so mitsu has nothing to do with it. Does this make better sense?

The most common cause of fuel dilution in oil is overly rich a/f ratios in a high compression NA motor or a high boost turbo motor. The X runs dangerously rich on the factory tune and even the latest reflash, and we are going to start seeing failed engine components and fouled out spark plugs from completely stock evos unless mitsu retunes this thing properly. I have never driven a car that runs as bad as the X in stock form, and from an engine that is built as tough as the 4b11 is, there is no legitimate reason to have the car tuned like this. I knw they want to keep egts down so the cat will last forever, but what's more expensive to replace, a cat or a blown engine?

Papi4baby

iTrader: (1)

10-4

Noize

iTrader: (24)

All three of my Evos oil went dark really fast, I think its just part of running synthetic. That said, I never smelled fuel in the oil.