The SST - It's an Automatic, is it not?
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver BC
All valid facts. But I guess my question is why do you guys think the term "automatic" ONLY refers to torque converter transmissions? I'm in my early 30's, so when I was growing up, an "automatic" was this new awesome thing that made driving more convenient for those who weren't racing their cars around the streets. It was a super expensive "new" option on most cars and the ONLY focus at that time was on the fact that the car shifted gears for you without the need for a clutch or levered gear shifter.
All you're doing is forcing super technological differences into a basic term that is used to separate the only two types of cars there are on the planet - those that shift gears for you, and those that do not.
All you're doing is forcing super technological differences into a basic term that is used to separate the only two types of cars there are on the planet - those that shift gears for you, and those that do not.
Your comments are valid - yes it has the ability to automatically shift gears for you if you so choose. But that does not in turn make it an automatic transmission. Just because it can do a task that an automatic transmission can, does not make it one. Sh!tty analogy time - I can run, but I'm not a runner.
Now, using your analogy we'll look at the Pagani Zonda... The Zonda uses a single clutch automated manual transmission. There is no clutch pedal to be depressed, it is controlled by a computer. A computer that could very easily shift it automatically if it so desired, but there is no option for that, it is sequential shift or paddles only. Your definition of a transmission would then consider this a manual transmission - but mechanically it is very similar to a dual clutch set up like the SST. The SST uses 2 gear sets and 2 clutch set ups, the Zonda unit uses 1 clutch and 1 gear set to save weight.
So now what? What happens if Pagani decides to put an automatic mode in the car for another model (all hypothetical of course) but doesn't change the transmission mechanically? Is it now an automatic?
But that's what you're asking. You're asking if it's an automatic transmission. By the currently accepted definition of an automatic transmission - it is not. You can't ask a question like you have and then ignore the technical information presented and state your opinion as fact - because it is not fact...
Your comments are valid - yes it has the ability to automatically shift gears for you if you so choose. But that does not in turn make it an automatic transmission. Just because it can do a task that an automatic transmission can, does not make it one. Sh!tty analogy time - I can run, but I'm not a runner.
Now, using your analogy we'll look at the Pagani Zonda... The Zonda uses a single clutch automated manual transmission. There is no clutch pedal to be depressed, it is controlled by a computer. A computer that could very easily shift it automatically if it so desired, but there is no option for that, it is sequential shift or paddles only. Your definition of a transmission would then consider this a manual transmission - but mechanically it is very similar to a dual clutch set up like the SST. The SST uses 2 gear sets and 2 clutch set ups, the Zonda unit uses 1 clutch and 1 gear set to save weight.
So now what? What happens if Pagani decides to put an automatic mode in the car for another model (all hypothetical of course) but doesn't change the transmission mechanically? Is it now an automatic?
Your comments are valid - yes it has the ability to automatically shift gears for you if you so choose. But that does not in turn make it an automatic transmission. Just because it can do a task that an automatic transmission can, does not make it one. Sh!tty analogy time - I can run, but I'm not a runner.
Now, using your analogy we'll look at the Pagani Zonda... The Zonda uses a single clutch automated manual transmission. There is no clutch pedal to be depressed, it is controlled by a computer. A computer that could very easily shift it automatically if it so desired, but there is no option for that, it is sequential shift or paddles only. Your definition of a transmission would then consider this a manual transmission - but mechanically it is very similar to a dual clutch set up like the SST. The SST uses 2 gear sets and 2 clutch set ups, the Zonda unit uses 1 clutch and 1 gear set to save weight.
So now what? What happens if Pagani decides to put an automatic mode in the car for another model (all hypothetical of course) but doesn't change the transmission mechanically? Is it now an automatic?
To use your example, the Pagani is still without a doubt an automatic. Hitting a paddle is just pressing a button. The car is still automatically shifting gears for you - it just waits for your command to do so.
To expound on your running/runner comment: this is exactly the point I've been trying to make for 5 pages.
You are inferring your own interpretation of the word "runner". You see a runner as a competitive athlete who is training for the next olympics. The fact is, that while you are running, you are in fact a runner by definition.
run·ner
/ˈrənər/
Noun
- A person who runs, esp. in a specified way: "a fast runner".
Are you not a person who runs while you are running? Now there are secondary and other endless definitions of the word "runner". That is why English is the single hardest language to learn on the planet. However, the first, root definition of the word is always the default. The root of the SST is that it shifts gears via a computer command automatically. How else can I say this?
au·to·mat·ic
/ˌôtəˈmatik/
Adjective
(of a device or process) Working by itself with little or no direct human control: "an automatic kettle that switches itself off".
No matter what anyone says, clicking a flappy paddle is about as little "human control" as you can get.
/ˌôtəˈmatik/
Adjective
(of a device or process) Working by itself with little or no direct human control: "an automatic kettle that switches itself off".
No matter what anyone says, clicking a flappy paddle is about as little "human control" as you can get.
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver BC
You are not physically moving the gears inside the transmission when you use a traditional manual transmission either. You are moving a lever, which works on a pivot and in turn tells the transmission to change gears. The driver is telling the transmission to change gears, correct?
Ok, DCT units work the EXACT SAME WAY, just a different input. I pull back on a paddle, it tells the TCU to change gears. All it has done is move the input from a mechanical linkage to an electronic signal... The driver is instructing the transmission to change gears.
Also, your argument changes when a point has been countered - previously you said that any car that changes gears for you is an automatic. I brought up an example where where that is not the case and you change your argument to an automatic is anything where you do not change gears yourself - which is moot as no one ever actually moves the gears inside the transmission. We only provide an input command, either through an analog movement or a digital signal.
It's like arguing with a bunch of retards in this thread, hence why I waited so long to chime in. I understand it's the internet and everyone takes pleasure in being stubborn and starting **** - but come on man. If this were a legitimate debate I would have already won.
A DCT transmission is neither an automatic or a manual. It is a manual that has evolved into a more efficient machine - hence why it sin't marketed as or termed either of them, it is a Dual Clutch Transmission. While you may not agree with it, there are hard facts that rely on the design of the transmission and how it is operated that clearly show it is not an automatic transmission.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
i do on my s14... direct linkage ftw
It's like arguing with a bunch of retards in this thread, hence why I waited so long to chime in. I understand it's the internet and everyone takes pleasure in being stubborn and starting **** - but come on man. If this were a legitimate debate I would have already won.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
its the internet dude....
But that's the exact same thing as moving a shifter!?Q?Q?Q?Q
You are not physically moving the gears inside the transmission when you use a traditional manual transmission either. You are moving a lever, which works on a pivot and in turn tells the transmission to change gears. The driver is telling the transmission to change gears, correct?
Ok, DCT units work the EXACT SAME WAY, just a different input. I pull back on a paddle, it tells the TCU to change gears. All it has done is move the input from a mechanical linkage to an electronic signal... The driver is instructing the transmission to change gears.
Also, your argument changes when a point has been countered - previously you said that any car that changes gears for you is an automatic. I brought up an example where where that is not the case and you change your argument to an automatic is anything where you do not change gears yourself - which is moot as no one ever actually moves the gears inside the transmission. We only provide an input command, either through an analog movement or a digital signal.
It's like arguing with a bunch of retards in this thread, hence why I waited so long to chime in. I understand it's the internet and everyone takes pleasure in being stubborn and starting **** - but come on man. If this were a legitimate debate I would have already won.
A DCT transmission is neither an automatic or a manual. It is a manual that has evolved into a more efficient machine - hence why it sin't marketed as or termed either of them, it is a Dual Clutch Transmission. While you may not agree with it, there are hard facts that rely on the design of the transmission and how it is operated that clearly show it is not an automatic transmission.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
You are not physically moving the gears inside the transmission when you use a traditional manual transmission either. You are moving a lever, which works on a pivot and in turn tells the transmission to change gears. The driver is telling the transmission to change gears, correct?
Ok, DCT units work the EXACT SAME WAY, just a different input. I pull back on a paddle, it tells the TCU to change gears. All it has done is move the input from a mechanical linkage to an electronic signal... The driver is instructing the transmission to change gears.
Also, your argument changes when a point has been countered - previously you said that any car that changes gears for you is an automatic. I brought up an example where where that is not the case and you change your argument to an automatic is anything where you do not change gears yourself - which is moot as no one ever actually moves the gears inside the transmission. We only provide an input command, either through an analog movement or a digital signal.
It's like arguing with a bunch of retards in this thread, hence why I waited so long to chime in. I understand it's the internet and everyone takes pleasure in being stubborn and starting **** - but come on man. If this were a legitimate debate I would have already won.
A DCT transmission is neither an automatic or a manual. It is a manual that has evolved into a more efficient machine - hence why it sin't marketed as or termed either of them, it is a Dual Clutch Transmission. While you may not agree with it, there are hard facts that rely on the design of the transmission and how it is operated that clearly show it is not an automatic transmission.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
Edit: and I didn't start this thread to start sh*t. I started it to end the sh*t I saw going on in another thread where people were calling others retarded for referring to their MR as an automatic. You still can't refute my base argument. Since you allegedly unsubscribed, it's a shame you won't be able to continue a normal debate - you seem like a well informed person and exactly the type of person I was hoping would chime in with comments. You talk about everyone else being stubborn, yet you seem to be the most stubborn claiming to have "won an argument" when, if a poll was taken on this thread a lone, you'd be in the minority by at least 5 to 1.
Last edited by NeedBoost!; Aug 16, 2013 at 10:00 AM.
But that's the exact same thing as moving a shifter!?Q?Q?Q?Q
You are not physically moving the gears inside the transmission when you use a traditional manual transmission either. You are moving a lever, which works on a pivot and in turn tells the transmission to change gears. The driver is telling the transmission to change gears, correct?
Ok, DCT units work the EXACT SAME WAY, just a different input. I pull back on a paddle, it tells the TCU to change gears. All it has done is move the input from a mechanical linkage to an electronic signal... The driver is instructing the transmission to change gears.
Also, your argument changes when a point has been countered - previously you said that any car that changes gears for you is an automatic. I brought up an example where where that is not the case and you change your argument to an automatic is anything where you do not change gears yourself - which is moot as no one ever actually moves the gears inside the transmission. We only provide an input command, either through an analog movement or a digital signal.
It's like arguing with a bunch of retards in this thread, hence why I waited so long to chime in. I understand it's the internet and everyone takes pleasure in being stubborn and starting **** - but come on man. If this were a legitimate debate I would have already won.
A DCT transmission is neither an automatic or a manual. It is a manual that has evolved into a more efficient machine - hence why it sin't marketed as or termed either of them, it is a Dual Clutch Transmission. While you may not agree with it, there are hard facts that rely on the design of the transmission and how it is operated that clearly show it is not an automatic transmission.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
You are not physically moving the gears inside the transmission when you use a traditional manual transmission either. You are moving a lever, which works on a pivot and in turn tells the transmission to change gears. The driver is telling the transmission to change gears, correct?
Ok, DCT units work the EXACT SAME WAY, just a different input. I pull back on a paddle, it tells the TCU to change gears. All it has done is move the input from a mechanical linkage to an electronic signal... The driver is instructing the transmission to change gears.
Also, your argument changes when a point has been countered - previously you said that any car that changes gears for you is an automatic. I brought up an example where where that is not the case and you change your argument to an automatic is anything where you do not change gears yourself - which is moot as no one ever actually moves the gears inside the transmission. We only provide an input command, either through an analog movement or a digital signal.
It's like arguing with a bunch of retards in this thread, hence why I waited so long to chime in. I understand it's the internet and everyone takes pleasure in being stubborn and starting **** - but come on man. If this were a legitimate debate I would have already won.
A DCT transmission is neither an automatic or a manual. It is a manual that has evolved into a more efficient machine - hence why it sin't marketed as or termed either of them, it is a Dual Clutch Transmission. While you may not agree with it, there are hard facts that rely on the design of the transmission and how it is operated that clearly show it is not an automatic transmission.
/unsubscribed - if I wanted to teach people who don't care to learn I would have been a high school teacher.
To refute your awfully uneducated claim that "you are not physically moving gears inside the transmission when you use a traditional manual transmission", please refer to the video below:
2 potentially correct schools of thought can lead to opposite answers
joseph143 I do have to say you may have a point. The idea of bringing the sequential trans into the discussion makes you think a bit more.
The way I see it is that much like science classifications, there are many levels needed to properly classify things. In this debate I see it going one of two ways (your way is now one of the two that I can admit is valid)
Your option seems to remove the second tier in my breakdown all together (which may or may not matter in the long run and would eleiminate the question of manual or automaticall together). The problem I see with this is laymens terms when discussing types of transmissions are required for 95% of the
My I think the first level/category is what is it -Tramsisson the next step is how can gears changes be controlled Manual (requires driver to select every gear change) or Automatic/Automated (Allows a mode for computer controlled gear changes) The third level is where the distinction lies (how gear changes are made)
I will give you my breakdown in my next post.
The way I see it is that much like science classifications, there are many levels needed to properly classify things. In this debate I see it going one of two ways (your way is now one of the two that I can admit is valid)
Your option seems to remove the second tier in my breakdown all together (which may or may not matter in the long run and would eleiminate the question of manual or automaticall together). The problem I see with this is laymens terms when discussing types of transmissions are required for 95% of the
My I think the first level/category is what is it -Tramsisson the next step is how can gears changes be controlled Manual (requires driver to select every gear change) or Automatic/Automated (Allows a mode for computer controlled gear changes) The third level is where the distinction lies (how gear changes are made)
I will give you my breakdown in my next post.
okay you guys want laymen terms... take your sst evo to an automatic transmission shop... the techs wont have a clue how to work on it... if you take it to a manual transmission shop they will have every tool to break it down and repair it...
so which is it?
but like i said... its not so cut and dry... its not black and white... its ****ing rainbow colored more then anything... mainly because this is gay...
ITS NEITHER...
even the wiki article for DCT says its both automatic and manual.. idk if you guys caught that.
as for needs boost posting the video to refute the fact you dont move gears....
you literally dont... you move a shift level... which acts on a shift rail... that is locked to a shift fork... which moves a collar... which engages a synchronizer... the gears don't actually move...
since everyone wants to speak of educated or uneducated...
so which is it?
but like i said... its not so cut and dry... its not black and white... its ****ing rainbow colored more then anything... mainly because this is gay...
ITS NEITHER...
even the wiki article for DCT says its both automatic and manual.. idk if you guys caught that.
as for needs boost posting the video to refute the fact you dont move gears....
you literally dont... you move a shift level... which acts on a shift rail... that is locked to a shift fork... which moves a collar... which engages a synchronizer... the gears don't actually move...
since everyone wants to speak of educated or uneducated...
find a single human in the entire world that can shift faster then a DCT and i will give you my evo...
find an automatic that can out shift a DCT and i'll give you a handy...
so what is so awful? only thing awful is the drivers awfully low lap times...
find an automatic that can out shift a DCT and i'll give you a handy...
so what is so awful? only thing awful is the drivers awfully low lap times...
1. Fixed Gear (typically low speed machines) - Single or multigear set-ups
that are connected by a chain or belt. Mulitigear set-ups change gears
using switches or levers that will deflect the chain/belt onto a different gear in the stacks.
2. Gearbox Transmission (typically higher speed motor driven machines)-
changes input speed of the engine to output ratio
2.a. Manual - Uses both a driver controlled mechanical linkage between
the engine and the transmission (clutch) that can be engaged and
disengaged physically by the driver to allow for smoother gear changes
and a driver operated gear selector to change gears.
2.a.1. Non-Sequential - The shifter mechanism allows any gear to be
selected and at any time and in any order by the driver (Note:
this does not mean the gears can necessarily engage, also
reverse may have a mecanical lockout device though the driver
may still be able to attempt to select the reverse gear)
2.a.2. Sequential - The driver's gear selection is limited to sequential
gear changes (i.e. 1-2, 4-3, not 1-3). Gears cannot be skipped.
2.b. Automatic - System that allows for computer controlled, electronic
linkage, between the ecu(s) and the transmission controlling forward
gear selection that can allow for the driver to override gear selection
for one, some or all of the gears. The connection between the input
and output shafts.
2.b.1. Traditional (for lack of the correct term on my part) - Forward
gear selection is controlled by the ecu (when the driver selects
"D" on the shifter) through a series mechanical
linkages that are controlled electronically. Typically a low gear
override option is able to be selected by the driver. A torque
converter is used to couple the engine output to the
transmission input.
2.b.2. Tiptronic - Similar to a Traditional in terms of mechanics but it allows for
driver use a +/- detent on the shifter mechanism or wheel mounted
paddels to simulate a manual sequential transmission operation. There
are many variations on this premise but in the end the computer will often
override a lack of or overagressive driver input for safety and reliability
reasons. (i.e. when slowing it will change gears once the gear is outside of
it's useful range, so when stopped it will automatically change to first gear)
2.b.3. SMG, SST, DCT PK...Semi Automated Manual - Allows for completely computer
controlled gear changes or driver selected gear electronic changes (using
shifter or paddles) in a sequential manner with very little computer override
programming. Gears are separated onto two shafts each with its own
clutch. The computer anticipates the next gear shift and the engages the
second clutch before the signal to shift is selected to allow for near
seamless sequential shifting. Similarities to both manual in construction and tiptronic
gear selection control exist.
2.b.4. CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) - The premise is based on
speed control systems of some machinery tool designs (i.e. bandsaw).
Rather than changing between gears that have fixed ratios, compoents
are made to physically change size to esentially create an infinite number
of gear ratios. This system heavily relies on computer controlled
anticipation and monitoring to function. It is efficient when cruising but
typically sluggish in response.
that are connected by a chain or belt. Mulitigear set-ups change gears
using switches or levers that will deflect the chain/belt onto a different gear in the stacks.
2. Gearbox Transmission (typically higher speed motor driven machines)-
changes input speed of the engine to output ratio
2.a. Manual - Uses both a driver controlled mechanical linkage between
the engine and the transmission (clutch) that can be engaged and
disengaged physically by the driver to allow for smoother gear changes
and a driver operated gear selector to change gears.
2.a.1. Non-Sequential - The shifter mechanism allows any gear to be
selected and at any time and in any order by the driver (Note:
this does not mean the gears can necessarily engage, also
reverse may have a mecanical lockout device though the driver
may still be able to attempt to select the reverse gear)
2.a.2. Sequential - The driver's gear selection is limited to sequential
gear changes (i.e. 1-2, 4-3, not 1-3). Gears cannot be skipped.
2.b. Automatic - System that allows for computer controlled, electronic
linkage, between the ecu(s) and the transmission controlling forward
gear selection that can allow for the driver to override gear selection
for one, some or all of the gears. The connection between the input
and output shafts.
2.b.1. Traditional (for lack of the correct term on my part) - Forward
gear selection is controlled by the ecu (when the driver selects
"D" on the shifter) through a series mechanical
linkages that are controlled electronically. Typically a low gear
override option is able to be selected by the driver. A torque
converter is used to couple the engine output to the
transmission input.
2.b.2. Tiptronic - Similar to a Traditional in terms of mechanics but it allows for
driver use a +/- detent on the shifter mechanism or wheel mounted
paddels to simulate a manual sequential transmission operation. There
are many variations on this premise but in the end the computer will often
override a lack of or overagressive driver input for safety and reliability
reasons. (i.e. when slowing it will change gears once the gear is outside of
it's useful range, so when stopped it will automatically change to first gear)
2.b.3. SMG, SST, DCT PK...Semi Automated Manual - Allows for completely computer
controlled gear changes or driver selected gear electronic changes (using
shifter or paddles) in a sequential manner with very little computer override
programming. Gears are separated onto two shafts each with its own
clutch. The computer anticipates the next gear shift and the engages the
second clutch before the signal to shift is selected to allow for near
seamless sequential shifting. Similarities to both manual in construction and tiptronic
gear selection control exist.
2.b.4. CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) - The premise is based on
speed control systems of some machinery tool designs (i.e. bandsaw).
Rather than changing between gears that have fixed ratios, compoents
are made to physically change size to esentially create an infinite number
of gear ratios. This system heavily relies on computer controlled
anticipation and monitoring to function. It is efficient when cruising but
typically sluggish in response.
Last edited by dolson222; Aug 16, 2013 at 12:09 PM.
My god this is ridiculous...
Doesn't seem that complicated to me.. It's not a simple manual transmission because there's no mechanical link between the driver and transmission (clutch, shifter w/ linkage, etc). It's not a "typical" automatic either because it's certainly not a slushbox.
It's an automated-manual as far as I'm concerned. The internals of the transmission have more in common with a manual transmission than an automatic with a torque converter, but the driver doesn't have direct input over the transmission. You interact with the transmission (if you so choose to) by using the paddles or gear stick which tell the computer what to do with the transmission, but you aren't interacting directly with the transmission directly like you would with a clutch and shifter w/ shift linkage.
Also, can't we all get along?
Doesn't seem that complicated to me.. It's not a simple manual transmission because there's no mechanical link between the driver and transmission (clutch, shifter w/ linkage, etc). It's not a "typical" automatic either because it's certainly not a slushbox.
It's an automated-manual as far as I'm concerned. The internals of the transmission have more in common with a manual transmission than an automatic with a torque converter, but the driver doesn't have direct input over the transmission. You interact with the transmission (if you so choose to) by using the paddles or gear stick which tell the computer what to do with the transmission, but you aren't interacting directly with the transmission directly like you would with a clutch and shifter w/ shift linkage.
Also, can't we all get along?
Ill never argue that it is just a technological improvement of the manual transmission but and that it is similar in many ways and is superior in many others, its still computer controlled (automatically), if it wasn't it wouldn't be as good as it is.
With the arguement that Mitsu calls is a Automated Manual Transaxle or SST, who cares? Its a marketing thing companies all call them different names for the same solution. Just look at variable valve timing. Its the name they gave it so people whould know it was different than the other two options. This makes it easier to sell ("all the benefits of a manual and an automatic" is a good way to sell a trans that costs 2-3 times what their others do) and maybe makes it less intimidating or easier to understand for transmission mechanics.
With the arguement that Mitsu calls is a Automated Manual Transaxle or SST, who cares? Its a marketing thing companies all call them different names for the same solution. Just look at variable valve timing. Its the name they gave it so people whould know it was different than the other two options. This makes it easier to sell ("all the benefits of a manual and an automatic" is a good way to sell a trans that costs 2-3 times what their others do) and maybe makes it less intimidating or easier to understand for transmission mechanics.
