Game over for AEM EMS?
Jul 30, 2006, 02:57 PM
#31
Originally Posted by Sean I
I have used speed density with the stock ecu and made over 520 wheel hp no problem , it's called a MAP ECU, it's available and works well on the evo.
You cannot add resolution to the RPM scale, yet, on the stock ecu, the last adjustable RPM range is 7500RPM.
You will get to a point where you physically have to recal the airmeter not through SW.
Legality is lost once you perform certain mods, and passing an OBD2 test doesn't mean the car is legal. Just an upgraded turbo or cat or Downpipe is technically illegal. But yes you can slide it through.
But yes the stock ECU is great for modding up to a certain point, and it's better on the pocket also.
Sean
You cannot add resolution to the RPM scale, yet, on the stock ecu, the last adjustable RPM range is 7500RPM.
You will get to a point where you physically have to recal the airmeter not through SW.
Legality is lost once you perform certain mods, and passing an OBD2 test doesn't mean the car is legal. Just an upgraded turbo or cat or Downpipe is technically illegal. But yes you can slide it through.
But yes the stock ECU is great for modding up to a certain point, and it's better on the pocket also.
Sean
However I can alter and recalibrate the MAF in the ECU itself,
I can and HAVE altered the RPM range to 9000rpm, and it can go as high as 10000.. This is an Adjustable parameter...
You are correct about the OBD-II test.. However the way the test works, if you pass you pass.. No help is needed.. I have smog tested my car and it would actually pass a sniffer test too.. Truth is anything we do to these cars would likely not be completely legal in the eyes of Federal and Local laws..
See attached image.. I quickly altered the RPM axis to show it can be done..
I can't disagree that you use the right tool for the job.. But the right tool for a street driven evo, is the stock ECU... Like I said, there are some things lacking in resolution, but the limitations aren't nearly as severe as most think, and 90% of the Evo's can do just fine with a reflash..
Jul 30, 2006, 03:02 PM
#32
Originally Posted by Sean I
At about 24psi on certain turbos you have already maxed the reading of the airmeter. If the airmeter is reading max output there is nothing you can do in the SW to compensate as you have already passed the usable range of the airmeter.
If that point is 24psi, then yes you can tune the car at 30psi, but there will be no way for the ECU to tell weather you are at 24 or 30psi. Therefore you are making a compromise.
Now what if you want to just turn the boost up to 35psi, well without retuning it you cannot do this as the ECU can't tell the difference again.
Now tune it at 35psi and driving along you decide to drop the boost to 25psi, PIG RICH, and non optimal timing, because it was optimized at higher boost.
So yes you can get around these issues but the solutions are not what I call acceptable under those conditions for my customers, which is why I don't suggest it over a certain level.
The AEM will handle that like it's nothing, 5 bar map sensor, compensating for boost levels your AF will be rock solid, at the different levels of boost once you dont run out of fuel via injector or your fuel system
Plus it's alot easier for one to tune.
Sean
If that point is 24psi, then yes you can tune the car at 30psi, but there will be no way for the ECU to tell weather you are at 24 or 30psi. Therefore you are making a compromise.
Now what if you want to just turn the boost up to 35psi, well without retuning it you cannot do this as the ECU can't tell the difference again.
Now tune it at 35psi and driving along you decide to drop the boost to 25psi, PIG RICH, and non optimal timing, because it was optimized at higher boost.
So yes you can get around these issues but the solutions are not what I call acceptable under those conditions for my customers, which is why I don't suggest it over a certain level.
The AEM will handle that like it's nothing, 5 bar map sensor, compensating for boost levels your AF will be rock solid, at the different levels of boost once you dont run out of fuel via injector or your fuel system
Plus it's alot easier for one to tune.
Sean
Its true that you lose resolution as you increase the range, but its possible...
Jul 30, 2006, 03:03 PM
#33
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
I'm aware of MAP ECU..
However I can alter and recalibrate the MAF in the ECU itself,
I can and HAVE altered the RPM range to 9000rpm, and it can go as high as 10000.. This is an Adjustable parameter...
You are correct about the OBD-II test.. However the way the test works, if you pass you pass.. No help is needed.. I have smog tested my car and it would actually pass a sniffer test too.. Truth is anything we do to these cars would likely not be completely legal in the eyes of Federal and Local laws..
See attached image.. I quickly altered the RPM axis to show it can be done..
I can't disagree that you use the right tool for the job.. But the right tool for a street driven evo, is the stock ECU... Like I said, there are some things lacking in resolution, but the limitations aren't nearly as severe as most think, and 90% of the Evo's can do just fine with a reflash..
However I can alter and recalibrate the MAF in the ECU itself,
I can and HAVE altered the RPM range to 9000rpm, and it can go as high as 10000.. This is an Adjustable parameter...
You are correct about the OBD-II test.. However the way the test works, if you pass you pass.. No help is needed.. I have smog tested my car and it would actually pass a sniffer test too.. Truth is anything we do to these cars would likely not be completely legal in the eyes of Federal and Local laws..
See attached image.. I quickly altered the RPM axis to show it can be done..
I can't disagree that you use the right tool for the job.. But the right tool for a street driven evo, is the stock ECU... Like I said, there are some things lacking in resolution, but the limitations aren't nearly as severe as most think, and 90% of the Evo's can do just fine with a reflash..
So all you do is just edit the rpm numbers or do you add rows in the definition also? Cannot really look at ecuflash right now..waiting my new hp laptop.. Soon ECUFLASH will have a way to add more resolution once someone figures it out. The obd1 honda rom is a prom example at stock ecu at its finest, less sophisticated than the EVO ECU, yet it now has great resolution and does a great job.. as of now though SEAN is right as far as being optimal in specific situations. If your goals are clear then you know the route to go, but IMO it is all up to the tuner and what your prefered tuner is comfortable with also.
Jul 30, 2006, 03:08 PM
#35
Originally Posted by mchuang
So all you do is just edit the rpm numbers or do you add rows in the definition also? Cannot really look at ecuflash right now..waiting my new hp laptop.. Soon ECUFLASH will have a way to add more resolution once someone figures it out. The obd1 honda rom is a prom example at stock ecu at its finest, less sophisticated than the EVO ECU, yet it now has great resolution and does a great job.. as of now though SEAN is right as far as being optimal in specific situations. If your goals are clear then you know the route to go, but IMO it is all up to the tuner and what your prefered tuner is comfortable with also.
FWIW I have isolated some values that appear to be the dimension of the tables, but their all packed pretty tightly together that theres no room to make them bigger without relocating them.
I'm certainly not arguing that people shouldn't use the AEM EMS, or that the ECU is better, just defending the assertion that there are many people running standalones that really didn't need to go that route for their mods.
The ECU is just a simple computer.. The Axis values are just stored in another table, and can be altered.. The programming of the ECU matches the RPM and other values in those columns and rows, to the data in there, if it meets the conditions it processes it accordingly.. It seems like very few of the settings are fixed values..
My only point is that some of the assertions made about the limits of the ECU aren't entirely accurate..
Last edited by MalibuJack; Jul 30, 2006 at 03:11 PM.
Jul 30, 2006, 03:13 PM
#36
I guess I like defending the Underdog.. No offense to anyone if I came across harsh..
I'm fortunate to be in a situation where I could run an EMS if I wanted to, and swap in an ECU that works just as well and will pass the NY state inspection. Only I haven't found I needed to switch yet. I also feel that there needs to be people willing to test the limits of what we're given, otherwise how do we learn new things?
I'm fortunate to be in a situation where I could run an EMS if I wanted to, and swap in an ECU that works just as well and will pass the NY state inspection. Only I haven't found I needed to switch yet. I also feel that there needs to be people willing to test the limits of what we're given, otherwise how do we learn new things?
Last edited by MalibuJack; Jul 30, 2006 at 03:25 PM.
Jul 30, 2006, 03:24 PM
#37
Rez, Smoggy already made his post about the power he made with the mods he has.
The point of this is not to demean or degrade people who already use an AEM EMS unnecessarily, but to hopefully dispel any myths that an AEM EMS _MUST_ be used with a certain setup on certain turbos when making less than 600whp (general number). There are MANY people out there who spend money on things without understanding the truth, and with as many people who put on upgraded turbos without even knowing how to change their oil, it would be helpful for them to know that they can pretty easily make 500-550whp on their stock ECU without spending 2-3k on a standalone.
The point of this is not to demean or degrade people who already use an AEM EMS unnecessarily, but to hopefully dispel any myths that an AEM EMS _MUST_ be used with a certain setup on certain turbos when making less than 600whp (general number). There are MANY people out there who spend money on things without understanding the truth, and with as many people who put on upgraded turbos without even knowing how to change their oil, it would be helpful for them to know that they can pretty easily make 500-550whp on their stock ECU without spending 2-3k on a standalone.
Jul 30, 2006, 03:28 PM
#38
We've only scratched the surface of ECU Tuning.. We haven't even gotten to the point of rewriting/modifying the actual code in the rom yet.. These past 2-3 months has been the first time anyone other than a tuner has been able to alter the ECU, and it represents the first time that these roms are available for people to disassemble and see how they work.. Think about a year or two from now...
Jul 30, 2006, 03:41 PM
#39
Ill chime in as well 
I had the stock ECU running mid 11s at 125mph all day long revving it to 8.5k
I also had many many tiny issues that I could not change. Anti-lag, Shift lights, full knock control, ability to change to whatever type of ignition I want without getting an amp, ability to set multiple rev limits (No lift to shift changable for every gear, Launch, primary rev limiter, rev limiter settingsm etc...), nitrous control (Which I havent used yet but will be most likely soon), tuning for whatever load/rpm point I want, ability to easily run speed density, much more logging ability, etc, etc...
The stock ECU is nice, simple to use, can pass emissions legally, and cheap.
Here is my list for what I would have had to do to get my car running like it is without an EMS.
The little reflash cable thing
Some MAF translator type box and a MAF
Some way to make the car cut ignition when my clutch is pushed in using the bottom clutch switch
Some ignition amplifier
And change the maps to actually tune at high RPM/load and sacrifice my low end stuff.
Find a way to log EGTs and my wideband at the same time as everything else
I spent $1500 on my EMS brand new.
$400 for a MAF translator and a different maf
$15 for that cable thing
$500 for a new ignition
Thats almost a grand right there and I still couldnt set up multiple rev limits, use anti-lag, have nitrous control, the ability to log EGTs and wideband and I would probably lose resolution at high RPM/Load or the low load/RPM. I would also have had plenty of crappy drives home because the need for a narrow band o2 sensor at all times.
I guess it all boils down to what you want... I want nitrous control, I want to log everything easily and quickly, I want to be able to run any ignition I want without an amp, I want lots of seperate rev limits, I want anti-lag, I want to be able to drive around fine with no o2 sensor with an intercooler pipe blown off.
And honestly, once you get used to the EMS it is incredibly easy to use and extremely predictable. You can tune your car at your house and get predictable results on the street. Now with all that said my EMS has also caused me problems. The idle circuit was junked so it idled purely mechanically and it had a problem with voltage which made the map sensor read strangely. The EMS isn't for everyone and I would not recommend it to anyone unless they are relatively serious about racing and having full control of everything. If you have a 3076 making 450 ponies and race 4 times a year and dont care about getting every last bit out of the car than dont buy an EMS.
I had the stock ECU running mid 11s at 125mph all day long revving it to 8.5k
I also had many many tiny issues that I could not change. Anti-lag, Shift lights, full knock control, ability to change to whatever type of ignition I want without getting an amp, ability to set multiple rev limits (No lift to shift changable for every gear, Launch, primary rev limiter, rev limiter settingsm etc...), nitrous control (Which I havent used yet but will be most likely soon), tuning for whatever load/rpm point I want, ability to easily run speed density, much more logging ability, etc, etc...
The stock ECU is nice, simple to use, can pass emissions legally, and cheap.
Here is my list for what I would have had to do to get my car running like it is without an EMS.
The little reflash cable thing
Some MAF translator type box and a MAF
Some way to make the car cut ignition when my clutch is pushed in using the bottom clutch switch
Some ignition amplifier
And change the maps to actually tune at high RPM/load and sacrifice my low end stuff.
Find a way to log EGTs and my wideband at the same time as everything else
I spent $1500 on my EMS brand new.
$400 for a MAF translator and a different maf
$15 for that cable thing
$500 for a new ignition
Thats almost a grand right there and I still couldnt set up multiple rev limits, use anti-lag, have nitrous control, the ability to log EGTs and wideband and I would probably lose resolution at high RPM/Load or the low load/RPM. I would also have had plenty of crappy drives home because the need for a narrow band o2 sensor at all times.
I guess it all boils down to what you want... I want nitrous control, I want to log everything easily and quickly, I want to be able to run any ignition I want without an amp, I want lots of seperate rev limits, I want anti-lag, I want to be able to drive around fine with no o2 sensor with an intercooler pipe blown off.
And honestly, once you get used to the EMS it is incredibly easy to use and extremely predictable. You can tune your car at your house and get predictable results on the street. Now with all that said my EMS has also caused me problems. The idle circuit was junked so it idled purely mechanically and it had a problem with voltage which made the map sensor read strangely. The EMS isn't for everyone and I would not recommend it to anyone unless they are relatively serious about racing and having full control of everything. If you have a 3076 making 450 ponies and race 4 times a year and dont care about getting every last bit out of the car than dont buy an EMS.
Jul 30, 2006, 04:17 PM
#40
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wherever WOT Takes Me..
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The value of a thread like this is to hopefully compel people to push the limits of whats there. I've seen 500+whp on a flash a number of times, but still far fewer then there should be. The stock ECU may not offer superior resolution in load scaling/timing control (how much is tuning to a 1/10th of a degree of timing worth?) but if a car is professionally tuned to run at a certain point, i.e. 28psi i doubt most owners would have an issue with not being able to raise/lower their boost. Personally, I set my car and maintain it at the same dyno/street verified level of tune.
I have a friend with a twin turbo z06 which has broken 1000whp, all on the stock MAF/ECU. Lots of people in the Subaru community have made considerable power utilizing EcuTek. The stock MAF does seem to become a hinderance but the possibility of remapping hte stock ecu with an $80 dollar cable and adding a maf translator device means you could essentially map your car for whatever power level you desire, albeit at a slight comprimise compared to the EMS.
I've seen what a professionally tuned EMS can do and it is impressive, but the cost/inabibility to pass emissions far outweigh the benefits.
I have a friend with a twin turbo z06 which has broken 1000whp, all on the stock MAF/ECU. Lots of people in the Subaru community have made considerable power utilizing EcuTek. The stock MAF does seem to become a hinderance but the possibility of remapping hte stock ecu with an $80 dollar cable and adding a maf translator device means you could essentially map your car for whatever power level you desire, albeit at a slight comprimise compared to the EMS.
I've seen what a professionally tuned EMS can do and it is impressive, but the cost/inabibility to pass emissions far outweigh the benefits.
Jul 30, 2006, 04:20 PM
#41
I think too many people are viewing this the wrong way... I said in 2003, and it is an absolute truth now with ECUflash's continued development. 95% of DAILY DRIVEN Evo owners have no need what so ever for a stand alone. 95% of my customers who have gone with the AEM are not happy with with the high idle, hard starts (extra crank time), and other little quirks. I do not tune, these are from known, reputable tuners flying into the state for tune dates. My customers tell me that some of the "quirks" are things they "...just have to live with... with a stand alone..." as per not only the tuners, but "seems to be common knowledge in the forums".
The other thing people (and tuners) are forgetting, is that emissions testing is spreading across the nation like a cancer (dramatic I know
). Here in Austin, TX, if you can't pass the plug in OBD II, your screwed. Good luck on ever going to a "ref" here... "what ref".
Lastly, not to open up a whole other can of worms, but show me one thing 99% of DAILY DRIVEN, "street legal" Evos NEEDS from the AEM that ECUflash and my XEDE (or other similar device) can't provide? I'll need a flame suit for that last one, but truth is most people drive their Evo on a daily basis. These days, it is quickly becoming more and more important to be able to keep your car "street legal" using an OE ECU. Hell yes everyone and their dog runs a test pipe... but how many of those who do can swap out a test pipe, can swap out the AEM on inspection day for an OE ECU?
The other thing people (and tuners) are forgetting, is that emissions testing is spreading across the nation like a cancer (dramatic I know
). Here in Austin, TX, if you can't pass the plug in OBD II, your screwed. Good luck on ever going to a "ref" here... "what ref".Lastly, not to open up a whole other can of worms, but show me one thing 99% of DAILY DRIVEN, "street legal" Evos NEEDS from the AEM that ECUflash and my XEDE (or other similar device) can't provide? I'll need a flame suit for that last one, but truth is most people drive their Evo on a daily basis. These days, it is quickly becoming more and more important to be able to keep your car "street legal" using an OE ECU. Hell yes everyone and their dog runs a test pipe... but how many of those who do can swap out a test pipe, can swap out the AEM on inspection day for an OE ECU?
Jul 30, 2006, 04:29 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Smogrunner
I think the fundamental problem with us Evo owners is found in our cars' phenomenol potential. Because of that potential, it is very hard for many of us to set appropriate power goals. I know I went overboard, and I have often counseled others to take a more conservative approach that is truer to the Evo's nature (370whp is fantastic). You guys ever notice all the overly modded Evos for sale. That is because folks over do it and want to start over and be more sensible the second time around.
That said, any Evo owner can have a PERFECTLY running 500whp car, that is as daily driveable as a stock Evo. All they need is the basic bolt on mods with a 3076 turbo and a good ECUFlash, Ecutek flash, or techtom flash. (I'd add that piggybacks can also get there but this thread isn't about that.) That is a fact that NO VENDER OR TUNER will deny unless they are lying. A car like this will run 11.5 at 123mph with any ole Dork like you or me driving it. Faster with an experienced shop and driver doing the prep. Now, Evo owners out there, why do you really need more than that?
However, for those who can't leave well enough alone (like me) you can go with a stroker motor and a 35R with a reflash and go out and run 11.0 at 128 without a problem, over and over again with Falken Azeni street tires spinning all the way through 1st and a well into second gear. Give me some drag radials and and another pound of boost (I was only running 31 psi) and who knows what the car will do.
If you need more than this, then by all means, go knock yourself out with a standalone.
That said, any Evo owner can have a PERFECTLY running 500whp car, that is as daily driveable as a stock Evo. All they need is the basic bolt on mods with a 3076 turbo and a good ECUFlash, Ecutek flash, or techtom flash. (I'd add that piggybacks can also get there but this thread isn't about that.) That is a fact that NO VENDER OR TUNER will deny unless they are lying. A car like this will run 11.5 at 123mph with any ole Dork like you or me driving it. Faster with an experienced shop and driver doing the prep. Now, Evo owners out there, why do you really need more than that?
However, for those who can't leave well enough alone (like me) you can go with a stroker motor and a 35R with a reflash and go out and run 11.0 at 128 without a problem, over and over again with Falken Azeni street tires spinning all the way through 1st and a well into second gear. Give me some drag radials and and another pound of boost (I was only running 31 psi) and who knows what the car will do.
If you need more than this, then by all means, go knock yourself out with a standalone.
I've been reading the thread and I think their is some excellent information contributed as it goes on. I am curious to my question as I am considering some big mods soon, and as many are agreeing...it would be pretty sweet to save money from a standalone to put into other things.
Jul 30, 2006, 04:39 PM
#44
Originally Posted by Mulholland0132
This is probably a stupid question but let's say you swapped out your 35R for a 37 and wanted to be in the mid 600 range. Could you get that kind of power using the stock ecu as you are now. I know the next issue would be fuel...but let's say you upgraded fuel system even more...to compensate for the power you were seeking. At this point could the stock ecu still offer the ability to hold this power or is 500+ the limit.
I've been reading the thread and I think their is some excellent information contributed as it goes on. I am curious to my question as I am considering some big mods soon, and as many are agreeing...it would be pretty sweet to save money from a standalone to put into other things.
I've been reading the thread and I think their is some excellent information contributed as it goes on. I am curious to my question as I am considering some big mods soon, and as many are agreeing...it would be pretty sweet to save money from a standalone to put into other things.
