MLR closed their website
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12
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From: UK
Jolly good, here we go again about the Internet being free speech and all that balooney.
The internet is not a pub barroom. Darin and the MLR are legally accountable for anything that could be regarded as slander, lies etc on the MLR forum becuase they technically own it.
They are not censoring peoples option to talk crap they are protecting their own intersts and the clubs when they edit/delete posts.
The MLR has had alot of flak recently from various companies about stuff posted on the board, its fine saying 'company x didn't do a good job' but vociferously shouting that company x are a bunch of f'ck wits is not.
You can't put that sort of stuff in a magazine or newspaper and thats what you have to see any internet forum as. Try posting a load of (maybe) slanderous comment sabout companies on here and see what the forum moderators do.
The MLR has virtually no moderators as they all resigned due to several people on the board constantly posting abuse about them - and once again (incorerctly) claiming a load of free speech and censorship crap.
When they delete threads they got abused and the poster simply started another thread and carried on in the same vein. The MLR is a tiny club and has to have support from the Evo related companies to help it produce the club mag (advertising, etc) and bring cars to events. They are not sucking up, but they have to make sure that the any complaints are accurate and have genuine grounding.
The MLR has closed its board to do work on it to allow the MLR to protect itself and its paid up members. Any member who has paid to join the club should feel happy that Darin is taking actions to protect those members investments in money and time.
TonyC
Evo 1-3 register secretary
www.lancerregister.com
The internet is not a pub barroom. Darin and the MLR are legally accountable for anything that could be regarded as slander, lies etc on the MLR forum becuase they technically own it.
They are not censoring peoples option to talk crap they are protecting their own intersts and the clubs when they edit/delete posts.
The MLR has had alot of flak recently from various companies about stuff posted on the board, its fine saying 'company x didn't do a good job' but vociferously shouting that company x are a bunch of f'ck wits is not.
You can't put that sort of stuff in a magazine or newspaper and thats what you have to see any internet forum as. Try posting a load of (maybe) slanderous comment sabout companies on here and see what the forum moderators do.
The MLR has virtually no moderators as they all resigned due to several people on the board constantly posting abuse about them - and once again (incorerctly) claiming a load of free speech and censorship crap.
When they delete threads they got abused and the poster simply started another thread and carried on in the same vein. The MLR is a tiny club and has to have support from the Evo related companies to help it produce the club mag (advertising, etc) and bring cars to events. They are not sucking up, but they have to make sure that the any complaints are accurate and have genuine grounding.
The MLR has closed its board to do work on it to allow the MLR to protect itself and its paid up members. Any member who has paid to join the club should feel happy that Darin is taking actions to protect those members investments in money and time.
TonyC
Evo 1-3 register secretary
www.lancerregister.com
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3
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Well said Tony, I think the time has maybe come to restrict free access to the board to MLR members, with non-members posts being moderated (i.e. vetted before being posted). The amount of times I've wondered if a poster has actually stumped up and help pay for the resource they are using/abusing, at least that way everyone could enquire and post their thoughts, with members knowing that the MLR holds their details and maybe thinking twice before posting some of the more defamatory stuff.
However, I'm a bit worried that the forum might never recover after a blow like this, it was always a bit flaky and folk might find they like another board (here for example) better.
However, I'm a bit worried that the forum might never recover after a blow like this, it was always a bit flaky and folk might find they like another board (here for example) better.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: England
TonyC,
Firstly I understand and agree about posting slanderous information and also abusing moderators, no call for it at all, people will always have differences of opinion but there is not need to get personal or go OTT, agree to disagree and leave it at that, its just not worth it.
If people do insist on acting against the forum T's & C's, delete the thread, if that doesn't work remove the user account, ban the IP etc etc.
Having missed the cause of the forum closure, I still have the following serious concerns and comments
1. I'm no lawyer but how can the MLR be accountable for the comments of third parties even if that third party is a MLR member? Even if they are, is there no way that the T's & C's can be altered to make responsibility in the sole domain of the poster?
2. The T's & C's in general could be tightened up
3. The influence that companies outside the MLR have over the forum and MLR, regardless of recent events, is worrying. It concerns me that the MLR is so reliant on these companies, this could lead to a perceived conflict of interest. I for one would be happy to pay a larger membership fee and/or raise money in other ways if it would insure the MLR's independence, the MLR is that valuable a resource to me.
4. Changes that are being made to the site may be a very good way to go but why does the board have to be closed? its seems more like the majority have to suffer due to the actions of a small minority. This comment is directed to both the MLR AND the minority....
5. How about some kind of user voting system that would allow posts to be removed, the majority of us are responsible enough to make a decision on what should be deleted, if implemented correctly this could work.
6. The moderators are doing a very difficult job very well, I'm very sad to hear that some of them have felt the need to resign
One final thought
The MLR IS its members.....
Ryan
Firstly I understand and agree about posting slanderous information and also abusing moderators, no call for it at all, people will always have differences of opinion but there is not need to get personal or go OTT, agree to disagree and leave it at that, its just not worth it.
If people do insist on acting against the forum T's & C's, delete the thread, if that doesn't work remove the user account, ban the IP etc etc.
Having missed the cause of the forum closure, I still have the following serious concerns and comments
1. I'm no lawyer but how can the MLR be accountable for the comments of third parties even if that third party is a MLR member? Even if they are, is there no way that the T's & C's can be altered to make responsibility in the sole domain of the poster?
2. The T's & C's in general could be tightened up
3. The influence that companies outside the MLR have over the forum and MLR, regardless of recent events, is worrying. It concerns me that the MLR is so reliant on these companies, this could lead to a perceived conflict of interest. I for one would be happy to pay a larger membership fee and/or raise money in other ways if it would insure the MLR's independence, the MLR is that valuable a resource to me.
4. Changes that are being made to the site may be a very good way to go but why does the board have to be closed? its seems more like the majority have to suffer due to the actions of a small minority. This comment is directed to both the MLR AND the minority....
5. How about some kind of user voting system that would allow posts to be removed, the majority of us are responsible enough to make a decision on what should be deleted, if implemented correctly this could work.
6. The moderators are doing a very difficult job very well, I'm very sad to hear that some of them have felt the need to resign
One final thought
The MLR IS its members.....
Ryan
Last edited by dedeffa; Nov 12, 2001 at 06:35 AM.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12
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From: UK
I know that Darin has had several discussion with compaies asking him to take action on a number of seemingly unfounded comments. There have been implied threats. Even if he may agree with some of sentiments, its the statements themselves that cause the problem. Is the poster of the comments going to appear in court to help defend the MLR or just disappear under their forum anonymity ? The MLR can't take that chance.
Regardless of what T&C's a forum has the buck does stop at the forum owners. You may or may not remember that Scoobynet was shut down for a time because of issues like this from tuning companies.
There is a way to express disgust at a compaies actions, the means used on the MLR board were often far to inflamatory, agressive and down right rude for the board to ignore. However, most moderators had given up due to the problems mentioned earlier. And any deleted threads just got re-created.
It was news to me until today that the board had been closed, I know Darin and Dom have been discussing making changes soon - perhaps they have decided enough is enough and are doing it now.
A better explanation could be on the front screen, but there have been enough warnings and discussions on the board in the recent months for most active members to work out what the problem may be.
And the internet is not free speech. Free speech implies you can speak without any care or consequence. Every forum you post things on is accountable for what is posted so your comments on any board can be chopped, changed or removed. You can't swear on this board for example.
The MLR makes virtually no money, the board is done volunterrily by Dom. A lot is done by members (like me) for free. There is no issue about making money here as some have suggested, simply about making sure that the club can continue to run without threat over postings on an internet forum.
Before anyone sounds a death-knell for what was a very active forum, why not wait a week and see what emerges. I doubt the closing of the board was an easy deceision, and it may do more harm than good but we'll have to wait and see.
TonyC
Regardless of what T&C's a forum has the buck does stop at the forum owners. You may or may not remember that Scoobynet was shut down for a time because of issues like this from tuning companies.
There is a way to express disgust at a compaies actions, the means used on the MLR board were often far to inflamatory, agressive and down right rude for the board to ignore. However, most moderators had given up due to the problems mentioned earlier. And any deleted threads just got re-created.
It was news to me until today that the board had been closed, I know Darin and Dom have been discussing making changes soon - perhaps they have decided enough is enough and are doing it now.
A better explanation could be on the front screen, but there have been enough warnings and discussions on the board in the recent months for most active members to work out what the problem may be.
And the internet is not free speech. Free speech implies you can speak without any care or consequence. Every forum you post things on is accountable for what is posted so your comments on any board can be chopped, changed or removed. You can't swear on this board for example.
The MLR makes virtually no money, the board is done volunterrily by Dom. A lot is done by members (like me) for free. There is no issue about making money here as some have suggested, simply about making sure that the club can continue to run without threat over postings on an internet forum.
Before anyone sounds a death-knell for what was a very active forum, why not wait a week and see what emerges. I doubt the closing of the board was an easy deceision, and it may do more harm than good but we'll have to wait and see.
TonyC
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 54
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From: Surrey, United Kingdom
Evo owners have expensive cars, and appear to all want them tuned up, if a company is clearly "RIPPING-OFF" customers (because of the customers lack of knowledge and understanding of these complex cars) then the MLR should ban that company, and not let the company ban the MLR.
I will not go into the full story with my car, as I am sure you have read the posts, however, RC Developments have a written report of the failing of one such company who potentially could have destroyed my engine, this report will be going to my company solicitors for any further action that may be needed.
I have yesterday (at a meeting) heard 4, yes 4! other similar cases from this one particular tuning company, this is a total disgrace, this company ought to either be exposed or the MLR ought to never use this company again, I am sure you know what company I am talking about.
How can you support a company, where so many people have complained, most people tend not to want to air their views, but I think in some circumstances this is totally wrong, if our cars are in jeopardy, then something should be done about it.
I am urging the MLR to stop using this company, they are destroying our cars!!
I am quite happy to let the MLR have all the copies of paperwork I hold for my particular case, where you will plainly see that the company involved has clearly ripped me off and could have seriously destoyed the engine, I will not stand this sort of behaviour from any company, neither will my company solicitors.
I will not go into the full story with my car, as I am sure you have read the posts, however, RC Developments have a written report of the failing of one such company who potentially could have destroyed my engine, this report will be going to my company solicitors for any further action that may be needed.
I have yesterday (at a meeting) heard 4, yes 4! other similar cases from this one particular tuning company, this is a total disgrace, this company ought to either be exposed or the MLR ought to never use this company again, I am sure you know what company I am talking about.
How can you support a company, where so many people have complained, most people tend not to want to air their views, but I think in some circumstances this is totally wrong, if our cars are in jeopardy, then something should be done about it.
I am urging the MLR to stop using this company, they are destroying our cars!!
I am quite happy to let the MLR have all the copies of paperwork I hold for my particular case, where you will plainly see that the company involved has clearly ripped me off and could have seriously destoyed the engine, I will not stand this sort of behaviour from any company, neither will my company solicitors.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: England
Tony,
We need a way to express our personal opinions and experiences with third parties, if those opinions show the third parties in a bad light of course the third parties will object, yes there is a way that these opinions can be posted without the threat of retaliation from the third parties.
I understand and agree that the method that these opinions are conveyed in could be done better, but its not difficult to think of ways to prevent people from posting lies, mis-information etc, a few have already been suggested, as an extreme people can create there own sites and put options there instead of on the MLR, if we then link to our own sites from the MLR are you going to censor those posts as well?
Tony you said the following
"There is no issue about making money here as some have suggested, simply about making sure that the club can continue to run without threat over postings on an internet forum."
The posting on the MLR forum states this
"The Mitsubishi Lancer Register committee tries its best to bring profile and revenue to the MLR through support from traders in the magazine, at track days, for special offers, for road tests and for information on new products. We are at serious risk of losing their support at the moment as a direct result of inaccurate postings and misuse of this forum."
I read it as an issue with making money......
From my experience the majority of comments that have been made about third parties have a basis in fact and are not because the poster is being vindictive towards the third party, yes it is true that a minority take their opinions to a excessive and unnecessary level, even so in the persons opinion the comments they make are valid, I again repeat that this could be done in a better, more sensible way.
An opinion is a personal thing and is a valid comment as are interpretations of events that you are involved in, I personally always state the FACTS of a situation along with my perceptions, if we are not given a way to express our opinions on the MLR forum I for one will not be returning to it.
Thanks
Ryan
We need a way to express our personal opinions and experiences with third parties, if those opinions show the third parties in a bad light of course the third parties will object, yes there is a way that these opinions can be posted without the threat of retaliation from the third parties.
I understand and agree that the method that these opinions are conveyed in could be done better, but its not difficult to think of ways to prevent people from posting lies, mis-information etc, a few have already been suggested, as an extreme people can create there own sites and put options there instead of on the MLR, if we then link to our own sites from the MLR are you going to censor those posts as well?
Tony you said the following
"There is no issue about making money here as some have suggested, simply about making sure that the club can continue to run without threat over postings on an internet forum."
The posting on the MLR forum states this
"The Mitsubishi Lancer Register committee tries its best to bring profile and revenue to the MLR through support from traders in the magazine, at track days, for special offers, for road tests and for information on new products. We are at serious risk of losing their support at the moment as a direct result of inaccurate postings and misuse of this forum."
I read it as an issue with making money......
From my experience the majority of comments that have been made about third parties have a basis in fact and are not because the poster is being vindictive towards the third party, yes it is true that a minority take their opinions to a excessive and unnecessary level, even so in the persons opinion the comments they make are valid, I again repeat that this could be done in a better, more sensible way.
An opinion is a personal thing and is a valid comment as are interpretations of events that you are involved in, I personally always state the FACTS of a situation along with my perceptions, if we are not given a way to express our opinions on the MLR forum I for one will not be returning to it.
Thanks
Ryan
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 827
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From: Germany
Antsevo,
you can post the company here, cause I don't think there'll be an issue of this board being sued as it's in the US. I totally agree about what you're saying. There isn't only the company that you talk about, but also PE, just have a look at http://www.evoblast .com and check Roy's PE section...
you can post the company here, cause I don't think there'll be an issue of this board being sued as it's in the US. I totally agree about what you're saying. There isn't only the company that you talk about, but also PE, just have a look at http://www.evoblast .com and check Roy's PE section...
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12
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From: UK
From the sound of it you are dealing with this in the corect way, the problem for any forum is when people just start posting 'company x blew up my car'. Then company X say 'no we didn't'. Argument ensures, in the end the forum owners get the flack from the companies (and the forum users).
But you taking action against the company, you have the evidence when they claim they didn't cause problem x or y.
If you want to warn other people against a particular company and have this information and made it subjective then I'm sure Darin would have no problems in letting peopel know in the club mag or whatever. He may have to give the company an opportunity to respond.
But we know the forum hasn't worked like that.
The MLR is not sucking up to any compnay, but they have to protect themsleves from any possible problems.
If you have several owners involved then write something for the club mag about the problems, with decent evidence. The club is for the good of Lancer owners, but its got to be balance itself carefully betwen the needs of its club members and the need to maintain relationships with major Evo related companies. With no support the club would fold.
TonyC
But you taking action against the company, you have the evidence when they claim they didn't cause problem x or y.
If you want to warn other people against a particular company and have this information and made it subjective then I'm sure Darin would have no problems in letting peopel know in the club mag or whatever. He may have to give the company an opportunity to respond.
But we know the forum hasn't worked like that.
The MLR is not sucking up to any compnay, but they have to protect themsleves from any possible problems.
If you have several owners involved then write something for the club mag about the problems, with decent evidence. The club is for the good of Lancer owners, but its got to be balance itself carefully betwen the needs of its club members and the need to maintain relationships with major Evo related companies. With no support the club would fold.
TonyC
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 54
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From: Surrey, United Kingdom
MichaelK
Yes, I did see that a few weeks ago, but as I've had no dealing with them I could not comment.
I think then my point is valid, as is others with bad service received from some tuning companies.
I'm sure the companies involved would not appreciate "Watchdog" or that hidden camera builders program doing a report on them, because I'm sure a lot would come out.
If there are lots of people having bad experiences with a particular company, they should be warned...its only fair!
Yes, I did see that a few weeks ago, but as I've had no dealing with them I could not comment.
I think then my point is valid, as is others with bad service received from some tuning companies.
I'm sure the companies involved would not appreciate "Watchdog" or that hidden camera builders program doing a report on them, because I'm sure a lot would come out.
If there are lots of people having bad experiences with a particular company, they should be warned...its only fair!
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
From: England
One other point brought out by Ants
If it is the members general consensus that any third party has significant issues with things like prices, incompetence, bad service etc. I for one do not want the MLR to have any associations with that third party. The third party should be excluded from the MLR with a basic objective reason and then ALL members should just leave the issue alone.
How about a way that we can review third parties? a scoring system for example, that way personal comments could be avoided and people can make up their own minds. Hell I may even do something like this on my web site if you don't
Ryan
If it is the members general consensus that any third party has significant issues with things like prices, incompetence, bad service etc. I for one do not want the MLR to have any associations with that third party. The third party should be excluded from the MLR with a basic objective reason and then ALL members should just leave the issue alone.
How about a way that we can review third parties? a scoring system for example, that way personal comments could be avoided and people can make up their own minds. Hell I may even do something like this on my web site if you don't
Ryan
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 827
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From: Germany
Ryan (dedeffa, is Antsevo a Ryan too?),
totally agree. I think Tony's actually getting stick for something he didn't do, as he doesn't seem to know himself what happened. But then you also shouldn't defend it, Tony...Anyway, what Tony wrote I understand in parts, but the statement that's on the forum is utter nonsense and if that's how things will be, about money, then I won't be returning either. Like dedeffa said, the opinions will get out in the open and the same goes for bad workmanship. The statement on the forum in short means that the MLR has sacrificed their members for money and pressure from some companies that didn't like their shoddy workmanship being reported.
Reg. Scoring system: I brought this up some time ago (maybe a year) but the MLR seemed to be too scared to do it. It was basically ignored although many people would have liked to have it.
totally agree. I think Tony's actually getting stick for something he didn't do, as he doesn't seem to know himself what happened. But then you also shouldn't defend it, Tony...Anyway, what Tony wrote I understand in parts, but the statement that's on the forum is utter nonsense and if that's how things will be, about money, then I won't be returning either. Like dedeffa said, the opinions will get out in the open and the same goes for bad workmanship. The statement on the forum in short means that the MLR has sacrificed their members for money and pressure from some companies that didn't like their shoddy workmanship being reported.
Reg. Scoring system: I brought this up some time ago (maybe a year) but the MLR seemed to be too scared to do it. It was basically ignored although many people would have liked to have it.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 74
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From: England
yup micheal I agree, Tony sorry you are getting the flack for this but you are defending it
Antsrevo is actually an Anthony or Ant if you like
I think I'll do a scoring/review thing on my web site then
Ryan
Antsrevo is actually an Anthony or Ant if you like
I think I'll do a scoring/review thing on my web site then
Ryan
