While I can understand that, I'd also point out that the majority of competitors at Nationals go home as "also rans"...

I was speaking with John Tak (2006 BSP champion) in Topeka, and he showed me a piece of paper with his various Nationals results over the years written down. A lot of mid-pack (or worse) finishes on there, and yet he kept coming back again and again and eventually rose to the top.

Without the "also rans", Nationals wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

 

Totally understand what you mean Jbrennen, but money and commitment involved are going to be large. It doesn't help that I'm already complaining about the costs involved with R-comps ... I happen to be fortunate enough to be in a region that has the 2006 CSP National Champ and the near-by region has the 05/06 National STU Champ. Mark Hill missed trophying in AS by 1 spot in 2006. These drivers will be a good performance metric to see where I stand. I'm sure most of whom have shown up in the past, are probably the top drivers in their region. Ofcourse there are those that also believe they stand a chance any given Sunday.

I'll know by mid-season where I stand. I just want to see an EVO do better than an STi and a Honda S2K ... is that too much to ask?

 

It was more like lots of mid-pack trophies. Actually, I called it a monkey off the back and proves how difficult it can be to win. I'm just missing a 3rd in there.
96 - 36 SS (a rude awakening)
97 - 26 SS
98 - 5 ESP
99 - 4 ESP
00 - 6 DS
01 - 11 DS (picked the wrong car)
02 - 5 CS (2nd after day 1 & blew it on something stupid)
03 - Did not attend
04 - 6 ESP
05 - 2 ESP
06 - 1 BSP

Gives some perspective but hopefully also some hope to all those that try.

John.....

 

Actually I think many people make a mistake of thinking that Evos and STis are the in the same class when it comes to stock. NO WAY!!!! Poor weight/torque bias and relatively soft springs on the Evo put it at a severe disadvantage in stock, particularly at the National level. Doesn't mean you can't have fun with it though and put a smack on lesser STi drivers.

 

Okay, two mid-pack (or worse) finishes, a decade ago.

My middle-aged memory ain't what it used to be...

Did you also show me Andy's Nationals results, maybe that's what I'm thinking of???

 

Although the EVOs are slightly more nose heavy, have softer springs and lack low end torque, it compensates in other areas, don't you think? Because an EVO runs softer spring rates it has a thicker front sway bar stock for stock, possibly keeping the stock wheel rates very similar between the 2 cars. Anyone know the ultimate wheels rates for the EVO and the STi?

We can improve body roll by running a bigger front sway bar and increase the contact patch on the front tires during corner corner entry and mid corner but we will sacrifice a little on corner exit. Ofcourse this does nothing to help the front and rear weight transition issue.... But wait! We have a nose heavy car with most of the weight in the front, so that would mean on corner exit it is going to actually help us with front grip as weight transition shouldn't be as bad.

Also the EVO has a quicker steering ratio, which helps the reaction of the driver.
EVOs have a better rear suspension design (multilink rear vs strut).
EVOs have taller 1st and 2nd gears which help us hit 60mph without shifting to 3rd.
In all my driving on RT-615s coming out of a corner, I never felt power limited but more traction limited coming out of a corner. I never felt turbo lag was an issue ...

Thoughts? Or should I just suck it up and head for STU?

 

Agreed with the above. I had a fun low pressure year in 2005. So I was mid pack in AS. But the car was fun to drive and I had fun, too.

Going to nationals, fun should be your goal. If you are in the Midwest, you really have no excuse to not participate. There will be 50 or so like minded competitors. Get out there and make friends with them. You'll see them next year.

 

Absolutely agree with you Jerry. I went this year just to have fun and did much better, last year I was stressed going for it, and coned it away. You hear lots of veterans saying just go to have fun, plus it helps to experience it first before you give it a serious shot.



As far as STi vs Evo, even in STU during the Pro Solo, the Suby's would power rotate out of the many one cone turns, and we would just understeer and bog until half way down the straights. The STi in AS on that course was unbeatable.

In AS, if the Evo had AYC like it was designed to have to complete with the STi, then I would say the Evo could be quicker.

 

A lot of normal theories would hold but the Evo when you get down to the operational analysis, doesn't follow.
Case in point, the car in stock form has too much travel and roll with too much nose weight...
- Can't compensate that away with enough front bar or static negative camber. Look at the packaging of the front bar, only so big you can go and that's not enough. Even with big springs, I wanted to go larger in front bar and had lots of static camber. Stock roll stiffness is barely 10k in-lb/deg w/ less than half from bar which is not nearly enough to make the rear work in solo, wants to be more than triple that. But again, there are limits like suspension frequency.
- Can't keep the inside rear wheel down long enough at corner entry (assuming hard corner loading) which then renders rear sway bar useless, big or not - see pictures of AS Evos in action.. big entry push, UGH!!!!. Thus ACD sends torque to front and you push even worse mid-corner. YIKES!!! Result is "slow" out which is exactly what you don't want since the turbo wants to be spooled up early but you can't.

Would love to see Evos competitive in AS but I can't see it happening at Nationals, too many other things going against you. Can certainly be competitive for local, I've driven a few and had fun. Lots of analysis and testing went into getting the BSP Evo to work so well. The whole time, we had to work against all these cause and effects. Net result is a slow in and scary fast out car where the next corner comes up holy cow NOW!!! STU cars are decent and tuneable like the BSP car. Just none have gone far enough yet but it could be different this year.

Interestingly, I think the STi is a better AS car by a mile and seeing it at Nationals this year only reinforced my thinking. On the other hand, I think it has other wheel travel and gearing compromises that limit it's max potential in BSP, advantage Evo. Yes, the cars are both termed "rally cars" and seen by many as the same but I would argue that it is far from being an absolute.

John......

 

I agree both cars are "rally cars" but the subtle differences are so many. I have attached 2 pics, of yours truely, experiencing inner rear wheel lift during corner entry and inner front suspension drooping down during corner exit. There was a real nice pic of my car where you could see the inside front strut and spring during corner exit but alas I can't seem to find it. It almost felt like the inside front was barely touching the ground and hardly providing grip.

Please don't take this as arguing, as I am hoping this is more of a open forum where we exchange of ideas and everyone can benefit. Inner rear wheel lift can't be such a bad thing, if one needs to increase front grip by transitioning the weight forward without overloading the front outer tire, can it?

Any time you need to create power oversteer, usually that mean the corner you are attacking is a relatively tight one, where you want to change directions asap, correct? Most of the corners in an average auto-x course are decent sized slaloms and sweepers, wouldn't you say?

During tighter corners, I have driven the EVO entirely in 1st gear, I have been able to create power oversteer be getting on the throttle early but this has been on street tires, would that change with R-comps given the added grip and the use of a bigger front sway? This is my biggest fear of going with a bigger front sway, corner exit speeds would greatly decrease due to the lack of front grip during corner exit.

During sweepers, the EVO has a very neutral feel compared to the STi which tends to understeer alot. This makes the EVO quicker around sweepers, I have been able to use that to my advantage and power out of corners earlier. I thought the fact that EVOs have more neg camber in the front would greatly benefit us, -1.6 deg on the EVO vs -0.75 deg on the STi ... due to the relatively soft springs on both cars. But again this is more theory than practical application.

 

I got -2.1 front out of stock Evo.

 

No problem on discussing the issues, it is a healthy exchange and here are a few other considerations:
- Stock Evo will transfer 1,700lb+ on the front loaded tire. Consider that and the small size of your tire contact patch. How much tire grip capacity is left for acceleration (good time to review friction circle theory)?
- Additionally, rear roll stiffness in stock form is about 55% spring and 45% bar. When you lift the rear wheel, 45% of the rear roll stiffness goes away. That's why rear lift is bad, worse if you have an ACD. A larger front bar will help a bit to slow this initial lift but an Evo is so severe and again with the limit on bar size, it can't get big enough. Camber curve isn't all that great either, don't know how the STi is. I joke that you need about 10degrees static negative in stock Evo, of course stopping is optional. The AS STi at National did not appear to suffer from this type of severe lift.

At that point, the car is not optimal and you have to do unnatural things, including some of which you mentioned. Unfortunately, doing a g-data plot would show a loss in ultimate potential as a result. BTW, I typically don't rely on 1st gear downshifts on an Evo, as guys who've ridden with me know. I've found the car to like a smoother hand and backing off a bit at corner entry, even in SP (slow in, fast out). I love sliding an Evo around as a means of staying fast but not in tight corners. I've also taught drifting which is fun, just not fast.

A couple shots for consideration. A perfect example of wheel lift on a faster national level course in stock, an example of extreme front load transfer even in SP and an example of how I could maybe still use a bit more camber at nearly 3 degrees negative in SP. Hope that helps.

John.....

 

Subscribed.

I currently run STS ( las vegas region ) but i'll be making a jump in class due when i buy my evo this fall.

Good reading

 

John, how much have you experimented with toe-out in the rear? Last year, I finally measured my rear toe and found it to be 1/16" toe in. I was quite amazed. I changed it to 1/16" toe-out and was amazed at the results. Compared to how the car drove previously, I could dive into sweepers as hard as I could with nearly no push. This also helps you rotate a little better on corner exit.

Not proven, but my theory is that rear toe-out may also help with rear inside wheel lift because the rear outside wheel slides out with less resistance.

I am going to try 1/8th" rear toe-out for the beginning of the season but will back it off if it gets too squirly in the slaloms.

 

Toe out in the rear is quite helpful. At times last year, I was running as much as 3/8th. It helped quite a bit as long as there weren't any longer slaloms. I was on the stock MR shocks last year, and it seemed like it took forever for the car to react in slaloms - it just takes time for the body to roll back and forth. With the extreme toe-out, the pendulum effect would become unmanagable.

I'm still amazed that even with running a staggered tire setup that I had to go to extreme rear toe to get decent rotation.

Tire wear is also interesting. Even with a lot of rear toe, the fronts wear more than twice as fast as the rears. I also run toe-out in the front with no dramatic negative side effects.