Brembo BBK 4 piston or 6 piston
Oct 16, 2018, 07:55 AM
#46
Benefits being:
- Greater heatsinkability from larger rotor and caliper
- Greater stopping power from larger dia rotor
- Minimal weight gain due to smaller caliper pistons and 2 piece rotor
- Similar or better pedal feel/firmness due to smaller piston area
- Cheaper than aftermarket brake options
- Lots of pad compound choices
- Greater heatsinkability from larger rotor and caliper
- Greater stopping power from larger dia rotor
- Minimal weight gain due to smaller caliper pistons and 2 piece rotor
- Similar or better pedal feel/firmness due to smaller piston area
- Cheaper than aftermarket brake options
- Lots of pad compound choices
I like the business idea but I'm afraid it will fall short in performance when compared to sim priced kits out there. If the 8/9 platform was NEW and there weren't already 100 kit options out there for 2k then this "cheaper" route would suffice. Combine that with a shrinking 8/9 market and you can begin to see why Essex took so long and so much convincing to produce even their Radical kit and still refuses to produce a REAR kit worth talking about. My 8350 kit only took 10 minutes worth of dremel work on the caliper bracket to clear the SSB hubs, so all other kits will likely require such minor efforts.
- Greater heatsinkability from larger rotor and caliper
At the cost of rotating mass but little to no increase in stiffness so flex is still an issue.
- Greater stopping power from larger dia rotor
Greater stopping DURABILITY but not power eg Torque. Would need numbers for it to "match" the oem master cyl and abs, risk of too much front bias with no way to adjust, too much rear etc
- Minimal weight gain due to smaller caliper pistons and 2 piece rotor
Most every Evo today has 2 piece rotors already, convince them of Your 2 piece and refer back to torque
- Similar or better pedal feel/firmness due to smaller piston area
No knockback spring, and pedal will go soft on lap 2 or 3 like most of the cts guys complain about.
- Cheaper than aftermarket brake options
Much cheaper then race options, and slightly cheaper then track options. Buuut, we're doing this for track so it circles back to - why yours.
- Lots of pad compound choices
This is a sticky one. In my experience I read that as lots of expensive pad choices. Due to it not being a somewhat universal pad shape they'll typically charge more for these "elite/luxury" cars. On the race side of things it's somewhat harder to get the sprint or enduro compounds for the real stuff because those shapes aren't used in euro/world markets.
Last edited by Balrok; Oct 16, 2018 at 09:02 AM.
Oct 16, 2018, 09:21 AM
#47
My 2 cents here from experience and business point of views, so I'm not shooting it down just being critical.
I like the business idea but I'm afraid it will fall short in performance when compared to sim priced kits out there. If the 8/9 platform was NEW and there weren't already 100 kit options out there for 2k then this "cheaper" route would suffice. Combine that with a shrinking 8/9 market and you can begin to see why Essex took so long and so much convincing to produce even their Radical kit and still refuses to produce a REAR kit worth talking about. My 8350 kit only took 10 minutes worth of dremel work on the caliper bracket to clear the SSB hubs, so all other kits will likely require such minor efforts.
- Greater heatsinkability from larger rotor and caliper
At the cost of rotating mass but little to no increase in stiffness so flex is still an issue.
We don't know the flex amount of the CTS caliper, I'd wager it's at least minimally better than the stock 8/9 caliper. Dallas and I are brainstorming ideas to try and measure this.
- Greater stopping power from larger dia rotor
Greater stopping DURABILITY but not power eg Torque. Would need numbers for it to "match" the oem master cyl and abs, risk of too much front bias with no way to adjust, too much rear etc
Better durability and torque. Larger disc = longer lever arm = more brake torque. In my experience on other cars with retrofitting calipers you can usually get away with ~10-12% change in piston area before you have to worry about matching F/R and master sizes properly. The less than 6% change from this wouldn't be noticed by anyone but the most acute 1% drivers. Coupled with the fact it's using a larger rotor, it's better to use smaller pistons to keep the pedal from feeling too touchy and being easy to modulate.
- Minimal weight gain due to smaller caliper pistons and 2 piece rotor
Most every Evo today has 2 piece rotors already, convince them of Your 2 piece and refer back to torque
Yes most guys do already have 2 piece setups. The cost of replacements is going to be similar to any 2 piece rotor you'd run on stock calipers.
- Similar or better pedal feel/firmness due to smaller piston area
No knockback spring, so pedal will go soft on lap 2 or 3 like most of the cts guys complain about.
I was unaware CTS guys had pad knockback issues. This is definitely something I'll need to look into, thank you for the info. On the bright side knockback springs usually aren't too expensive.
- Cheaper than aftermarket brake options
Much cheaper then race options, and slightly cheaper then track options. Buuut, we're doing this for track so it circles back to - why yours.
I would not recommend a kit like this for guys doing 30+ minute races or W2W stuff. For that your only legitimate option is a proper BBK setup. As for shorter duty/track day/time attack/autox stuff, the big draw is the disc size. Jumping from a 320mm to 380mm disc is a pretty big benefit and to my knowledge no one offers a "medium duty" brake kit with rotors that large. The alternative to make it even cheaper would be to retain the stock caliper (or X caliper) for use with the 380mm disc but that's something I still need to think about and discuss with Dallas to see what he thinks.
- Lots of pad compound choices
This is a sticky one. In my experience I read that as lots of expensive pad choices. Due to it not being a somewhat universal pad shape they'll typically charge more for these "elite/luxury" cars. On the race side of things it's somewhat harder to get the sprint or enduro compounds for the real stuff because those shapes aren't used in euro/world markets.
You are very right that pad price does go up a bit. Most of the pad compounds guys here run are in the $300-350 range for this pad shape. On the bright side though, this is the same shape pad used on some AMG Mercedes, R35 GTR, Audi RS6 and a couple others so pretty much every compound is available.
I like the business idea but I'm afraid it will fall short in performance when compared to sim priced kits out there. If the 8/9 platform was NEW and there weren't already 100 kit options out there for 2k then this "cheaper" route would suffice. Combine that with a shrinking 8/9 market and you can begin to see why Essex took so long and so much convincing to produce even their Radical kit and still refuses to produce a REAR kit worth talking about. My 8350 kit only took 10 minutes worth of dremel work on the caliper bracket to clear the SSB hubs, so all other kits will likely require such minor efforts.
- Greater heatsinkability from larger rotor and caliper
At the cost of rotating mass but little to no increase in stiffness so flex is still an issue.
We don't know the flex amount of the CTS caliper, I'd wager it's at least minimally better than the stock 8/9 caliper. Dallas and I are brainstorming ideas to try and measure this.
- Greater stopping power from larger dia rotor
Greater stopping DURABILITY but not power eg Torque. Would need numbers for it to "match" the oem master cyl and abs, risk of too much front bias with no way to adjust, too much rear etc
Better durability and torque. Larger disc = longer lever arm = more brake torque. In my experience on other cars with retrofitting calipers you can usually get away with ~10-12% change in piston area before you have to worry about matching F/R and master sizes properly. The less than 6% change from this wouldn't be noticed by anyone but the most acute 1% drivers. Coupled with the fact it's using a larger rotor, it's better to use smaller pistons to keep the pedal from feeling too touchy and being easy to modulate.
- Minimal weight gain due to smaller caliper pistons and 2 piece rotor
Most every Evo today has 2 piece rotors already, convince them of Your 2 piece and refer back to torque
Yes most guys do already have 2 piece setups. The cost of replacements is going to be similar to any 2 piece rotor you'd run on stock calipers.
- Similar or better pedal feel/firmness due to smaller piston area
No knockback spring, so pedal will go soft on lap 2 or 3 like most of the cts guys complain about.
I was unaware CTS guys had pad knockback issues. This is definitely something I'll need to look into, thank you for the info. On the bright side knockback springs usually aren't too expensive.
- Cheaper than aftermarket brake options
Much cheaper then race options, and slightly cheaper then track options. Buuut, we're doing this for track so it circles back to - why yours.
I would not recommend a kit like this for guys doing 30+ minute races or W2W stuff. For that your only legitimate option is a proper BBK setup. As for shorter duty/track day/time attack/autox stuff, the big draw is the disc size. Jumping from a 320mm to 380mm disc is a pretty big benefit and to my knowledge no one offers a "medium duty" brake kit with rotors that large. The alternative to make it even cheaper would be to retain the stock caliper (or X caliper) for use with the 380mm disc but that's something I still need to think about and discuss with Dallas to see what he thinks.
- Lots of pad compound choices
This is a sticky one. In my experience I read that as lots of expensive pad choices. Due to it not being a somewhat universal pad shape they'll typically charge more for these "elite/luxury" cars. On the race side of things it's somewhat harder to get the sprint or enduro compounds for the real stuff because those shapes aren't used in euro/world markets.
You are very right that pad price does go up a bit. Most of the pad compounds guys here run are in the $300-350 range for this pad shape. On the bright side though, this is the same shape pad used on some AMG Mercedes, R35 GTR, Audi RS6 and a couple others so pretty much every compound is available.
As for mass appeal, I don't expect this to be a huge seller by any means. The only reason I'm for it is that it only requires Dallas to tweak his knuckle design a little, and a custom center hat for the rotor. Everything else is OTS stuff that anyone can buy so it's really just an optional brake upgrade for guys who buy his knuckles, which gives his knuckles a strong selling point vs others.
Responses are in red in the quote. Once again, thank you for your feedback!
Oh and last night I hashed out the center hat design, still need to get a rotor to finalize some numbers and print off a prototype.
Last edited by Ayoustin; Oct 16, 2018 at 09:26 AM.
Oct 16, 2018, 06:27 PM
#49
They do. 380x32mm
Dallas and I discussed using a radial mount caliper like the ones AP sells that are used in your 8350 kit but they can only use up to a 330mm disc. Basically any radial mount caliper large enough to use a 380mm disc is going to cost at least a grand for each side. It would end up costing almost as much as a full blown race kit.
Dallas and I discussed using a radial mount caliper like the ones AP sells that are used in your 8350 kit but they can only use up to a 330mm disc. Basically any radial mount caliper large enough to use a 380mm disc is going to cost at least a grand for each side. It would end up costing almost as much as a full blown race kit.
Oct 16, 2018, 06:36 PM
#50
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
This is all well and good, except Pro Awesome still runs EvoX brakes. I don't see the need for bigger brakes for trackday/HPDE/autocross/time attack use. Just my $.02
Oct 16, 2018, 07:04 PM
#51
There's more to stopping quickly than just having an extreme brake system. Their car has some pretty insane aero and that plays a huge role in deceleration. When I talked to them at PRI last year they said they were making enough downforce the power steering system wasn't creating enough assist for them to turn properly, I would definitely say they've got some pretty decent braking assistance from their aero. For the more average car that's lacking in the aero department, a little more brake would be beneficial IMO.
Larger discs means ducting is less vital and also means a less aggressive compound can give you the same stopping performance as a more aggressive compound on a smaller disc and the larger pads and greater contact area mean that pads will wear more evenly, dissipate heat better and last longer. I have no complaints with my stock brakes, I'm not knocking down doors saying that they're inadequate and I hate them, but I think going this way is a step in the right direction.
Larger discs means ducting is less vital and also means a less aggressive compound can give you the same stopping performance as a more aggressive compound on a smaller disc and the larger pads and greater contact area mean that pads will wear more evenly, dissipate heat better and last longer. I have no complaints with my stock brakes, I'm not knocking down doors saying that they're inadequate and I hate them, but I think going this way is a step in the right direction.
Last edited by Ayoustin; Oct 16, 2018 at 07:12 PM.
Oct 16, 2018, 07:53 PM
#52
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
All that aero creates more grip which translates to more load on the brakes also.
I'm just playing devils advocate here.. My car got the upgrade to X brakes, but I won't get to try them until next year...
I'm just playing devils advocate here.. My car got the upgrade to X brakes, but I won't get to try them until next year...
Oct 16, 2018, 08:22 PM
#53
I geek out any part but I pretty much don't touch anything that doesn't keep my car at 10/10th's for 25+ laps. It's borderline on the 8350's when I go to A's or full slicks WITHOUT ducting. But due to size it'll cost me more then the larger kits price tag to go that route atm.
Oct 16, 2018, 08:47 PM
#54
Interesting discussion. I've gone through 2 sets of brown/black-bos over the years at Watkins Glen and a while back, before I threw the car into a tire wall at CMP on One Lap, was looking at the various Essex setups as the next step to get deeper into the corners at Watkins. In my spare time ( which is not much ), I've been looking to see if there is any way to craft a custom kit that would be an easier combination to gain some brake force without needing to break the bank and would keep the ease of maintenance of a true race caliper.
I was digging around the Wilwood options, especially the ones they have kitted up for C6 and C7 kits for the Vettes to see if I could retro fit any of those configurations but I really didn't get anywhere.
I was digging around the Wilwood options, especially the ones they have kitted up for C6 and C7 kits for the Vettes to see if I could retro fit any of those configurations but I really didn't get anywhere.
Oct 16, 2018, 09:22 PM
#55
Last I talked to Mike and Dan they were switching back to the Evo 9 calipers. I dont recall exactly why but I think it was about rotational mass and some issues with the X caliper over the 8/9 brembo they didnt like. I cant say for sure if they ever did it though since the evo was down up til just a couple weeks ago.
Oct 17, 2018, 01:13 AM
#56
Evolved Member
it is same sized pad.. I see no reason for using X caliper over the 9 one, except for easier install of 350mm discs on stock hubs..
Oct 17, 2018, 07:52 AM
#57
Interesting discussion. I've gone through 2 sets of brown/black-bos over the years at Watkins Glen and a while back, before I threw the car into a tire wall at CMP on One Lap, was looking at the various Essex setups as the next step to get deeper into the corners at Watkins. In my spare time ( which is not much ), I've been looking to see if there is any way to craft a custom kit that would be an easier combination to gain some brake force without needing to break the bank and would keep the ease of maintenance of a true race caliper.
I was digging around the Wilwood options, especially the ones they have kitted up for C6 and C7 kits for the Vettes to see if I could retro fit any of those configurations but I really didn't get anywhere.
I was digging around the Wilwood options, especially the ones they have kitted up for C6 and C7 kits for the Vettes to see if I could retro fit any of those configurations but I really didn't get anywhere.
Oct 17, 2018, 08:00 AM
#58
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
Oct 17, 2018, 08:21 AM
#59
They already make an Evo kit for 14" ( 355 mm ) rotors but it uses the Forged Narrow Superlite setup: 14" Dynalite Brake Kit from Wilwood
I was looking more into retro fitting that into an Aero6 caliper instead. Radial mount setup however: Aero6 Radial 6-piston
I was looking more into retro fitting that into an Aero6 caliper instead. Radial mount setup however: Aero6 Radial 6-piston
Oct 17, 2018, 08:26 AM
#60
They already make an Evo kit for 14" ( 355 mm ) rotors but it uses the Forged Narrow Superlite setup: 14" Dynalite Brake Kit from Wilwood
I was looking more into retro fitting that into an Aero6 caliper instead. Radial mount setup however: Aero6 Radial 6-piston
I was looking more into retro fitting that into an Aero6 caliper instead. Radial mount setup however: Aero6 Radial 6-piston
The Aero6 has 10% less piston area but 380mm has 8.5% more lever arm. And the calipers themselves aren't to expensive.