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Last dyno was the 430/390 with a 71HTA & S1s on E85. Tires are 255/40-17s right now due to stock fenders but I have 18x10 NT03+Ms I can utilize as well. A ladder fell on my car and banged up the passenger fender and hood so a little less concern about the factory body. I know it doesn't need the kitchen sink but with parts going out of production anything I can do to make sure there's less parts needed down the road I'm in for. Car is only street driven to events but I also now have a house and spot for a trailer. It has no AC or radio so the F150 is a much more comfortable ride.
Thanks, man. I'll have to check the oil pressure at idle and go from there. I do have adjustable cam gears so that's not an additional expense required to run the gear. I'm still on a 4G63 so the height thing doesn't matter to me. Didn't you have an issue with your alternator vibrating apart or was that someone else?
The Alt is apparently an Evo thing. Ive since seen it happen to a bunch of people now that Im paying attention. Ive also seen random pictures of people motors out of the car and zoomed in on the alt missing bolts. Thats just a dab of loctite away from being fine
Alright guys, it's time to get my jalopy back on the road. There are some maintenance items that need to get taken care of to include fluids, fuel system flush and cleaning, tires, water pump, and a timing belt. I haven't autocrossed in 3 years due to losing the best lot in the metroplex at Texas Motor Speedway (thanks covid). The other lot that's become the primary has a very rough asphalt surface including cracks that will cause wear up the shoulders of the tires from hitting them while turning. So, I'm not sure how much auto-x I'll be doing locally here but may get into track days to utilize Eagles Canyon and Motorsport Ranch Cresson. With this in mind I'm looking for advice on some upgrades as I like not having to worry about issues. My questions are:
1) Should I remove balance shafts? I don't plan on pushing my existing setup any more than it already is. I'm fine with the limiter where it's at as well. It's on Torque Solutions trans, roll stopper, and cam side mount if NVH with these is an issue (I don't want my car falling apart from bolts backing out).
2) I'm probably going to get an Infinite Evo pan plus a Tomei scraper. I've had a Kiggly HLA installed for 4 or 5 years now. Should I inspect and possibly replace front case & oil pump? The car has 8X,XXX miles on it and for the last decade and 15,XXX miles has primarily been an auto-x car.
3) If I remove balance shafts should I get the ER oil pump gear?
4) Is there anything else I should be looking at?
As the others said, definitely pull and check the oil pump.
The aluminum bore in the pump (where the 20mm shaft runs in) typically wears, and this allows the gear to rock over and contact the thrust face of the pump housing.
This eventually wears down and degrades, making oil pressure worse. As Dallas mentioned, when they get bad the oil pressure at idle is a good indication.
Balance shafts is a very interesting topic that i've been thinking about more and more.
From what i've seen, balance shaft failures are typically from either poor maintenance or oil surge. People normally replace cambelts, but not the balance shaft belts. Then they snap/break.
And when you're doing track-days in an Evo without the Infinite Evo oil pan or a dry sump, you're going to be seeing a lot of oil surge on any Right-Hand corner.
Even a factory unmodified car you will see these problems if you're pushing hard.
Tomei scraper is a good idea, I'm running one on the InfiniteEvo test car (Evo6). You can tweak the scraper to run really close to the rods and crank if you want. From what i've read, minimum 60thou (1.5mm) seems right for clearance.
If you're not revving super high, which you wont with Balance shafts, then the ER pump gear isn't needed.
Do NOT delete your balance shaft. This will destroy your engine over time and do not listen to anyone who tells you it's just there for NVH. This coming from someone who is a weight reduction freak. No ps, no ac, no acd/ayc, no abs no airbag no sound deadning ect...id never remove my balance shafts. Im not going to post abunch of reasons why. Look into manufacture information on why they're there, make your own conclusion. Do research other than forums. Thats all I'm going to say.
Alright guys, it's time to get my jalopy back on the road. There are some maintenance items that need to get taken care of to include fluids, fuel system flush and cleaning, tires, water pump, and a timing belt. I haven't autocrossed in 3 years due to losing the best lot in the metroplex at Texas Motor Speedway (thanks covid). The other lot that's become the primary has a very rough asphalt surface including cracks that will cause wear up the shoulders of the tires from hitting them while turning. So, I'm not sure how much auto-x I'll be doing locally here but may get into track days to utilize Eagles Canyon and Motorsport Ranch Cresson. With this in mind I'm looking for advice on some upgrades as I like not having to worry about issues. My questions are:
1) Should I remove balance shafts? I don't plan on pushing my existing setup any more than it already is. I'm fine with the limiter where it's at as well. It's on Torque Solutions trans, roll stopper, and cam side mount if NVH with these is an issue (I don't want my car falling apart from bolts backing out).
2) I'm probably going to get an Infinite Evo pan plus a Tomei scraper. I've had a Kiggly HLA installed for 4 or 5 years now. Should I inspect and possibly replace front case & oil pump? The car has 8X,XXX miles on it and for the last decade and 15,XXX miles has primarily been an auto-x car.
3) If I remove balance shafts should I get the ER oil pump gear?
4) Is there anything else I should be looking at?
Do NOT delete your balance shaft. This will destroy your engine over time and do not listen to anyone who tells you it's just there for NVH. This coming from someone who is a weight reduction freak. No ps, no ac, no acd/ayc, no abs no airbag no sound deadning ect...id never remove my balance shafts. Im not going to post abunch of reasons why. Look into manufacture information on why they're there, make your own conclusion. Do research other than forums. Thats all I'm going to say.
I literally used to be an engineer that did OEM level development testing on balance shaft systems using multi million dollar dyno cells. They are purely for NVH.
There is so much damn hearsay about these things on the internet and the amount of misinformation is disturbing. Balance shafts cancel second order vibrations, vibrations which don't cause damage. It'd be like saying don't put stiffer bushings in your suspension because the soft factory rubber bushings are there to keep the chassis from getting damaged. The harmful vibrations that you should be concerned about are first order vibrations (which is solved by making sure the rotating assembly is correctly balanced), and torsional vibrations (which is solved by using a properly tuned crankshaft damper).
^ Lets say it is purely for NVH. Secondary vibrations will cause shifting issues at lower rpm, making the car harder to engage and wearing critical gearing components. You just can't make the argument they're there purely for comfort, vibrations are vibrations and any additional will have an effect. The shock bushings was a bad comparison as it's not a vibrating component. This is why they don't recommend overly stiff bushing on engine mounts, exhaust hangers ect..
Mitsubishi balance shaft systems are actually quite unique and different as they have their own patent so the fact you did this as work on others is not relevant. Each one is engineered based on that specific engine design. Why remove them anyway? I have never seen one fail, they don't add or take away any useful power/weight. Just zero benefits but sure consequences.
Last edited by RallySport9; Aug 3, 2023 at 08:11 AM.
^ Lets say it is purely for NVH. Secondary vibrations will cause shifting issues at lower rpm, making the car harder to engage and wearing critical gearing components. You just can't make the argument they're there purely for comfort, vibrations are vibrations and any additional will have an effect. The shock bushings was a bad comparison as it's not a vibrating component. This is why they don't recommend overly stiff bushing on engine mounts, exhaust hangers ect..
Mitsubishi balance shaft systems are actually quite unique and different as they have their own patent so the fact you did this as work on others is not relevant. Each one is engineered based on that specific engine design. Why remove them anyway? I have never seen one fail, they don't add or take away any useful power/weight. Just zero benefits but sure consequences.
Cool opinion. They fail routinely and deleting them does not cause the issues you suggest they do.
The fun thing about controlling harmonics, is when you change the system you change the harmonics.
But at the end of the day, balance shafts are a liability. If removing balance shafts causes some level of wear or life decay, its extremely minimal relative to the 30psi off the rev limiter type abuse we put them through.
On more of a safety note, think I'm OK running this Dorman hardware instead of the "proprietary hardware" as H&R tech support so put it?
Both a conical 60* seat but different lengths
"They are not a cataloged item, although, I do have them here at our facility in WA state. We do not sell direct, but inquire with a distributor directly and they are obtainable through them." lol
^ Lets say it is purely for NVH. Secondary vibrations will cause shifting issues at lower rpm, making the car harder to engage and wearing critical gearing components. You just can't make the argument they're there purely for comfort, vibrations are vibrations and any additional will have an effect. The shock bushings was a bad comparison as it's not a vibrating component. This is why they don't recommend overly stiff bushing on engine mounts, exhaust hangers ect..
Mitsubishi balance shaft systems are actually quite unique and different as they have their own patent so the fact you did this as work on others is not relevant. Each one is engineered based on that specific engine design. Why remove them anyway? I have never seen one fail, they don't add or take away any useful power/weight. Just zero benefits but sure consequences.
No, just no. Show me real data with numbers that prove secondary vibrations are causing gearbox wear/damage or poor shift quality. You won't be able to, because it is torsional vibrations that tear up gearboxes. I've ran engine dynos and balance shaft dynos and have looked at hours of run time with high frequency accelerometers, at no point did removing balance shafts increase damaging harmonics. The only issue these second order vibrations can make is shaking bolts loose out of the engine, which isn't an issue if things are torqued properly. You're also wrong about engine mounts, go look at old Mitsu rally cars, the Ralliart engine mounts are basically solid mounts. Go look at modern TCR cars, the engines are solid mounted to the chassis.
There is nothing special about the balance shafts used in these engines. The principle is exactly the same as any other 4 cylinder balance shafts, there are 2 shafts that spin at twice the speed of the crank and balance out second order vibrations from the crank as well as balance each other out. The only thing that changes across different engines is the balancing weight used in them, which like any frequency tuning device is only effective in a certain range. Most balance shafts are tuned from the OEM to be most effective at idle and low RPMs, because that is where the customer will notice it most.
Here's list of why you would want to remove them:
Less rotating weight for the engine to spin
Less weight on the front of the car
It removes a rubber belt that can fail (I have had a balance shaft belt fail)
It removes two objects that need oil pressure, which allows more oil to be sent to the rest of the engine
Having two less spinning shafts decreases the amount of metal particulates in the oil
You are more than welcome to keep the balance shafts in your engine, they have their place especially if the car is just a daily driver, but don't go spreading false information and telling people blatantly wrong information by saying that they will damage their engine by removing the balance shafts.
On more of a safety note, think I'm OK running this Dorman hardware instead of the "proprietary hardware" as H&R tech support so put it?
Both a conical 60* seat but different lengths
"They are not a cataloged item, although, I do have them here at our facility in WA state. We do not sell direct, but inquire with a distributor directly and they are obtainable through them." lol
can you put a socket in there? 17mm hex should be fine in most cases
