Oil Pressure drop right hander question
Apr 24, 2019, 09:57 AM
#46
Read the despriction of what I posted on the Unit 2 pan. They're seeing over 2Gs of lateral acceleration with no pressure loss. That car also sees 3Gs under braking. If you search their page I remember them posting data traces of pressure, it's impressive.
I don't understand where this mentality came from that the only thing that works is a dry sump. There's lots of very fast platforms that run on wet sumps without issues.
Real race cars use dry sumps because their engines have to breathe through restrictors so if moving to a dry sump gains them 3-5 horsepower by being able to pull a vacuum on the crankcase, that's a huge advantage.
For average joes like us, we don't need to worry about that, we just need to keep the oil from getting aerated and to be able to keep enough around the pickup at all times, something that's very doable on a properly engineered wet sump.
I don't understand where this mentality came from that the only thing that works is a dry sump. There's lots of very fast platforms that run on wet sumps without issues.
Real race cars use dry sumps because their engines have to breathe through restrictors so if moving to a dry sump gains them 3-5 horsepower by being able to pull a vacuum on the crankcase, that's a huge advantage.
For average joes like us, we don't need to worry about that, we just need to keep the oil from getting aerated and to be able to keep enough around the pickup at all times, something that's very doable on a properly engineered wet sump.
Apr 24, 2019, 09:57 AM
#47
Well I just posted in the maperformance input thread that's in the Evo General section about wanting a product(oil pan) like they're making for the Evo X. You guys who are also interested should do the same.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...r-input-5.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...r-input-5.html
Apr 24, 2019, 10:27 AM
#48
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
I don't think the baffled pans are a bandaid. They do have a limit, just like the stock pan works fine on a stock car, the upgraded pans currently available don't really work for big tire/aero.
Dry sumps are fairly trouble free. At most they run ~150psi so they aren't even close to taxing the AN hoses and fittings that are capable of operating at north of 400psi, so they don't blow hoses apart ever unless someone assemble one wrong. But you can test those before they go in the car so it's not a huge deal. The cog belt doesn't just fall off unless it gets kicked off by a rock or debris, so sealing the engine bay with an undertray and side panels is a good idea. Other wise the pump itself could fail, but so can the stock oil pump so that point is moot.
Dry sumps are fairly trouble free. At most they run ~150psi so they aren't even close to taxing the AN hoses and fittings that are capable of operating at north of 400psi, so they don't blow hoses apart ever unless someone assemble one wrong. But you can test those before they go in the car so it's not a huge deal. The cog belt doesn't just fall off unless it gets kicked off by a rock or debris, so sealing the engine bay with an undertray and side panels is a good idea. Other wise the pump itself could fail, but so can the stock oil pump so that point is moot.
Apr 24, 2019, 11:33 AM
#49
EvoM Guru
dry sumps are literally set and forget. i havnt had to do a single thing to mine.
Like mentioned anything but a drysump is a bandaid tbh. its not the lack of baffles in the sump that cause the oiling issues. its kind of like if ur motor has **** compression so u go and bolt a bigger turbo onto it to compensate. rather than just fixing the lack of compression.
I wouldnt bother with the racefab pan. its well overpriced for what ur getting. take pictures to a decent stateside fabricator and he can build you the exact same thing in a couple days for fraction of the price. literally just fold up a box. cut the bottom off the pan and weld in a diamond shaped insert with some door hinges from the hardware store in it. then weld it to the pan. adding the box gives u a volume increase too.
But if youve got a built motor etc its worth protecting that investment with a drysump imo. unless its a street car in which i understand it becomes a hastle with the tank etc.
Like mentioned anything but a drysump is a bandaid tbh. its not the lack of baffles in the sump that cause the oiling issues. its kind of like if ur motor has **** compression so u go and bolt a bigger turbo onto it to compensate. rather than just fixing the lack of compression.
I wouldnt bother with the racefab pan. its well overpriced for what ur getting. take pictures to a decent stateside fabricator and he can build you the exact same thing in a couple days for fraction of the price. literally just fold up a box. cut the bottom off the pan and weld in a diamond shaped insert with some door hinges from the hardware store in it. then weld it to the pan. adding the box gives u a volume increase too.
But if youve got a built motor etc its worth protecting that investment with a drysump imo. unless its a street car in which i understand it becomes a hastle with the tank etc.
Apr 24, 2019, 11:51 AM
#50
Evolved Member
question is... what would be considered "affordable" dry sump solution?...
Apr 24, 2019, 12:03 PM
#51
There's not. A cheap dry sump is $4k all said and done.
Again, I don't understand why so many people are hung up on dry sump kits. A properly built wet sump works just fine, the problem is we don't have any current options for a proper wet sump.
We already know dry sumps work, but they're expensive, take up space, add more maintenance items, and requires even further modification of your car. Why wouldn't people want a drop in solution that fixes pressure drop issues that can be had for under $1000?
Again, I don't understand why so many people are hung up on dry sump kits. A properly built wet sump works just fine, the problem is we don't have any current options for a proper wet sump.
We already know dry sumps work, but they're expensive, take up space, add more maintenance items, and requires even further modification of your car. Why wouldn't people want a drop in solution that fixes pressure drop issues that can be had for under $1000?
Apr 24, 2019, 12:15 PM
#52
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
The "proper" wet sump you're referring to requires rerouting the exhaust and doesn't work with AC in order to move the sump and pick up to the center of the engine.
Apr 24, 2019, 01:02 PM
#55
There's not. A cheap dry sump is $4k all said and done.
Again, I don't understand why so many people are hung up on dry sump kits. A properly built wet sump works just fine, the problem is we don't have any current options for a proper wet sump.
We already know dry sumps work, but they're expensive, take up space, add more maintenance items, and requires even further modification of your car. Why wouldn't people want a drop in solution that fixes pressure drop issues that can be had for under $1000?
Again, I don't understand why so many people are hung up on dry sump kits. A properly built wet sump works just fine, the problem is we don't have any current options for a proper wet sump.
We already know dry sumps work, but they're expensive, take up space, add more maintenance items, and requires even further modification of your car. Why wouldn't people want a drop in solution that fixes pressure drop issues that can be had for under $1000?
I already have one of Kaj's pans, and I doubt I'll get to a level that it becomes an issue,
but what is the next step up from that and what is so much better about it?
Apr 24, 2019, 01:13 PM
#56
Most guys will be fine with the chopped stock pans as long as they're not running fat tires or anything like a Hoosier. The next step up from a chopped stock pan is a pan with better baffling and is able to return oil to the aump area where the pickup sits.
Maybe I should mark up some photos to give a clear understanding of what the inherent issue is so everyone can be on the same page.
Apr 24, 2019, 01:50 PM
#57
Evolved Member
Yes.
Most guys will be fine with the chopped stock pans as long as they're not running fat tires or anything like a Hoosier. The next step up from a chopped stock pan is a pan with better baffling and is able to return oil to the aump area where the pickup sits.
Maybe I should mark up some photos to give a clear understanding of what the inherent issue is so everyone can be on the same page.
Most guys will be fine with the chopped stock pans as long as they're not running fat tires or anything like a Hoosier. The next step up from a chopped stock pan is a pan with better baffling and is able to return oil to the aump area where the pickup sits.
Maybe I should mark up some photos to give a clear understanding of what the inherent issue is so everyone can be on the same page.
I was working on something similar..
Attachment 324293
Attachment 324294
Attachment 324295
even wanted to do a electric pump for oil transfer in right handers..
Attachment 324027
Apr 24, 2019, 02:37 PM
#58
Yes.
Most guys will be fine with the chopped stock pans as long as they're not running fat tires or anything like a Hoosier. The next step up from a chopped stock pan is a pan with better baffling and is able to return oil to the aump area where the pickup sits.
Maybe I should mark up some photos to give a clear understanding of what the inherent issue is so everyone can be on the same page.
Most guys will be fine with the chopped stock pans as long as they're not running fat tires or anything like a Hoosier. The next step up from a chopped stock pan is a pan with better baffling and is able to return oil to the aump area where the pickup sits.
Maybe I should mark up some photos to give a clear understanding of what the inherent issue is so everyone can be on the same page.
I'd like to see some pics or explanation of that pans guts and why more trap doors gets oil back to where you want it.
you cant make a pan that returns the oil to the pickup in a right hand corner... it is just physics.. all the oil ends up on the flywheel side of the engine.. 1 G right hander is the equivalent of tilting the engine 45 deg... Trap doors keep the oil contained a bit but the oil pump will suck something like 0.5 litres per sec at high RPM.. so that is gone soon too.... Probably the biggest benefit of modified pans is enlarged capacity...
I was working on something similar..
even wanted to do a electric pump for oil transfer in right handers..
I was working on something similar..
even wanted to do a electric pump for oil transfer in right handers..
looking around under there today makes me think the modded stock pans could get even a bit more
capacity.
Any reason no one ever put a wall with 2 trap doors cutting off shallow part of pan?
Apr 24, 2019, 04:48 PM
#59
Why pay $1000 for a chopped up stock pan when we can potentially get a brand new aluminum pan from MAP that actually returns oil to the sump for considerably less money??
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...il-pan-v2.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...il-pan-v2.html
I'd say. These pans let us go faster than a stock pan. I built my car around the limitation, which is far better than stock. For me: Can I throw on some Hoosiers and pull race car Gs? No. If I decide to be at that level, then I'll look into a dry sump. Will a "chopped up" stock pan allow me to turn much faster lap times? Heck yes. Does the extra 2.5+ quarts help? Absolutely. I don't miss seeing my temp gauge trying to climp up to 300*
We just can't have too high of expectations of a wet sump pan. It can only do "so much", IMO.
FWIW: I talked to Matt the other day and forwarded the "thanks" from everyone and let him know how much the work was appreciated. He said, "Well, we learned a lot... next time.... ". I won't say what he said after... but I may be able to talk him into another run.
Apr 24, 2019, 10:14 PM
#60
Evolved Member
I'd like to see some pics or explanation of that pans guts and why more trap doors gets oil back to where you want it.
I like the idea of going "up". That pan still fit with AC and everything else? Haven't put mine in yet, but
looking around under there today makes me think the modded stock pans could get even a bit more
capacity.
Any reason no one ever put a wall with 2 trap doors cutting off shallow part of pan?
I like the idea of going "up". That pan still fit with AC and everything else? Haven't put mine in yet, but
looking around under there today makes me think the modded stock pans could get even a bit more
capacity.
Any reason no one ever put a wall with 2 trap doors cutting off shallow part of pan?
One of the things I was looking into was how to shut that hole above the oil pick up while keeping it easy to install.. But that whole project is now stopped in favor of a dry sump... (not saying that there is no benefit in a good wet sump..)