It's feels like 2014 in here again haha

 

Isn't it though? Like the old Buschur failures lol.

 

Since youre about to start racing and since this is a motor sports forum, I should tell you that it's not too late. what's worse than a broken car is a broken car several miles from home. and if you care, you could also cause delay and loss for other people in the same event. I found metal bits during my gear oil change before an event 900miles away but I still went with it (eventhough i have a fresh backup transmission). Well it broke. there are other people there who had known issues and caused problems, there were talks of not letting them run again.

Anyway, going to the garage now to deal with other life problems caused by fluids/contaminants and poorly draining surfaces the "engineers" in all of us chose to dismiss.

 

just something to consider when doing oil changes. if you look at the lower right hole, oil drains fine in there. all the other surfaces are still submerged in oil. assuming with lots more time all the oil will be at the drain plug quadrant, you might want to consider draining from the temp sensor plug as well
This was drained while on a lift, and yes I have debris in there but I've brushed away whatever i can from the tiny gaps I expected the oil to slip under






the oil grade is 20w50 if it matters

 

Tans is not the same as an engine and should not be compared. Note the ball bearings in a trans not tight tolerance journal bearings with a filter and pumped oil supply.

I don't have the answer but I predict you will have the same problem again. This is not a wish for bad luck but an inevitable result of not finding the root cause.

A small increase in pan surface area will not create extra ground up metal. Metal stuck to a surface is not circulating through journal bearings. Have you put a magnet on the metal residue? Most likely it is non-magnetic gound off bearing surface residue. By the time you see it, failure is already underway for whatever reason.

I would replace everything that is hard or impossible to clean, Disassemble everything else and bottle brush all oil passages. if oil touches it consider it suspect.

Since about 1 quart is in the oil cooler and won't drain and could have suspended metal in it. That is a bigger threat than the surface of an oil pan. You could break a line free and get it to drain a hassle but nothing like what you have already endured.

Passages in the Mivec cams and solenoids should be flushed. Lash adjusters should be thrown out and replaced, Oil passages should be bottle brushed.

Remember that the bearing widiths and designs are not changed with higher HP so could be prone to galing under load if oil film is breached and metals touch.

ER reduced oil pump gear might also be a problem. Since you have a good bypass not much need for it and it might cause oil pressure to drop too low at idle speeds.

Is your oil pressure gauge good? I have seen wide differences with electrical and mechanical gauges. The IE setup requires testing the oil pressure at full temp at 7000 rpm. I like electrical but you could buy HF mechanical and cross check them, I did.

IE testing was not done with an ER reduced pump drive as far as I know so mods with mods are hard to predict.

Best of luck, time to watch Super Bowl.

Mitsuatb

 

Oh my God. You completely missed the point. And youre still talking about my motor lol. This is crazy town or I have the only non-bot account in here

My conversation with you from the start was to understand what "I am an engineer" should mean to me.

Alexa, restart!

 

Comparing an aftermarket oil pan to the 2008 financial crisis was a nice touch.

Anyway, I’m still interested in data about oil pressure differentials across the oil filter at the pressures and flow rates we see in our cars if anyone has anything more to share. That’s an interesting topic from a few pages back before things got derailed.

 

An extreme example of complacency and negligence, that may have impacted you (if you have a 401k). If youre familiar, there were data tucked away and there were voices questioning the status quo. The oil pan is a product so thats not whats being compared. Its the people who wont pump the brakes because of groupthink, people who are too proud, maybe greedy

you want simpler examples of easily disimssed "poor drainage" that will cost a lot of money later? I'm sure you can think of a number of things if you kept a house long enough. if you have a car with a sunroof which, if you keep them outdoors long enough, will eventually clog since the "engineers" didnt think you'd park under a tree. The serious rust issues on fuel tanks seen here on evoms are from poor drainage and lack of preventative maintenance. I have a car i'm resto-moding and I'm un-flattening horizontal surfaces to promote drainage. parts on this car are more unobtainium than evo parts. Anyway, theyre all laughable ideas until you have to deal with it. There's no shortage of memes about engineers. usually its about the practicality of their product/ideas. They seem to stop thinking at some point, they dont think about what happens after. of course there are engineers who would consider making small changes to make their designs better. The not-glamourous industrial engineering might have been created to address the snotty-ness of engineers

anyway I just thought maybe the 401k-thing was more relatable PITA-wise

 

Yes I was talking about your engine and the oil pan we both have.

Why would I post about anything else on this thread?

The question you should be asking is not, "How do I drain metal that my engine is puking up", but why is it puking up metal?

You do not know a root cause, so it will happen again with the next engine. Whomever is giving you these ideas that "There's your problem, flat surface area", is not helping you.

I have tried, best of luck.

Mitsuatb

 

Ah no. I have been saying that we are done talking about the motor(s) quite a while back. Since no one really knows. You probably thought I was asking, my bad. Been trying to move away from that topic.

Let me point out again, we are done talking about the motor(s). What I do have in front of me is the used oil pan. I have been looking at this closely and have been questioning everyone's claims that this drains "ok", and questioning claims that this pan is "better in all aspects" than the OE/other oil pans.

I tried to help you understand that its not too late when your car is giving you signs of potential issues. That its a good thing to factor into the design making the maintenance procedures more productive. I mean (I was avoiding name-dropping) I think even RSMike understands it since he thought about making the pan easier to clean

adding: we are done talking about the motor(s)

 

Bearings do not regrow metal - I still hold that glitter in the oil means engine done.

Bearing surface is lost, clearances are lost, Oil pressure may be lost, and metal in oil damages all other bearings.

You are delusional if you think an oil change stops this process.

By stopping use of the motor if you see metal, you may avoid a rod through the block. Any useful repair will require engine tear down.

Pan can be cleaned, once the oil is stripped and its dry air will remove metal flakes and you can pop out the rubber doors.

Maybe buy an EV - problem solved.

That's all folks.

Mitsuatb



Bearings do not

 

OMG what? we were not talking about bearings or fixing something lol
Discovering any "potential" issue means you DO NOT use the car and get into bigger problems. <--- let me put an arrow here. i hope you read it
You sir, need some motorsports experience (deal with problems that comes with it). The "engineer" in you is that dismissiveness. People who has something to contribute in these car forums have probably broken the a lot of parts Learn a little bit from their experience. I think thats why you bought the oil pan, but there are more experiences out there

 

Following up on this, RSMike already posted some great data and testing in this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...l#post11936050

The linked post above uses a non-bypass filter (no bypass valve, oil can only flow through filter media) and the pressure drop across the filter housing was only 3.2psi. Similar numbers with a bypass filter.

So it appears that the oil filter should be filtering properly even during high RPM operation. Assuming a quality oil filter that isn't clogged, of course. The relief valve opening pressure of the WIX filter tested in the linked thread is specified as 8-11 psi, which is significantly higher than the ~3 psi observed value.

 

That data is a non-bypass filter. Those *typically* only filter down to about 50-60 microns, but they flow 28gpm.

Whereas a bypass filter will go down to ~20 microns, but, depending on the filter, only flow 10-16gpm or so.

Non-bypass racing filters that only filter down to to that 50-60 micron mark should ONLY be used in applications where the oil is changed every few hours of engine run time, and are expected to be refreshed at much shorter then intervals (typically less than 100 hours, more like 20-50)

 

Napoleon on Experience: "In my army their is a Mule that has been on every campaign and has more experience in war than all of my Generals combined, but that mule will never be a General".

Experience is only useful if you learn from it and do not repeat mistakes. You have that problem, I don't.

OMG OMG OMG, Try only running on banked ovals to keep the pan tilted to avoid poor drainage of metal derbies in the engine. Boycott all flat parking lot autocross courses, flat surfaces must be avoided at all costs.

I bought the Oil pan because it is well designed like the parts I have made for Toyota, Kawasaki, HVAC Systems, and US Air Force.

You have blown two engines and are content in your knowledge.

Don't worry, you will get another leaning opportunity.

Mitsuatb

Na