might as well refer a consumer protection lawyer while youre at it j/k

BTW I believe Kozmic Motorsports is more successful than Evolution Dynamics (4.5hrs away) . The "replacement" Pikes Peak evo for the one that fell off the cliff is owned by the navigator whos in the houston region. He mentioned some issue with EvoD so he pulled his car out of there. I think we're way better off with our options in Houston

 

Oil filters should always be cut on race engines at every oil change. "normal" looking oil isn't a good way to judge if there's an impeding issue.

 

mmkay I just ordered an oil filter cutter. everyone should get one

 

Sorry to hear about your issues ViciousLSD.
If there was contamination in the oil pan, the oil pump surfaces should look absolutely horrible. There are some scratches on it, but it doesn't look as bad as other pumps i've seen.
The oil filter should only go into bypass if it's full of junk. I've done some pressure delta testing on oil filters and if they are new (not full), it's near zero pressure loss (1-3psi).
The scuffing on the oil pump housing bore seems excessive.

I'm interested in why almost everything looks like it's scratched up.

Here is an oil pressure scatter graph of an Aussie 2.2L engine revving to 8600rpm. Track car, sequential gearbox etc.
I'm running my own test car to ~7700rpm only because it's 2.3 stroker.

 

I appreciate your post @RSMike . My car hit the 8300 & 8500 revlimiters a number times, before and after the IE pan was used, it was fine too. It's just both motors failed (rod bearings) swerving around and bouncing on the rev limiter after the IE pan installation. I understand people just offer samplings and naming names but the situation/issue I had twice is quite specific and on the very similar course sections. It's probably hard to explain to people who dont autocross . as I said I drove the car 1500miles and the oil was changed 5 times on this new motor. if there was contamination in there during assembly and or any time before the incident, it just didnt want to come out with the oil change and maybe accumulating in there too. big and small metal bits will be produced before and after the rod knock so I cant tell at which point any contamination started making its marks.
I'm going to have to go back to the OE pan/regulator and be more thorough inspecting the oil. I'm lowering the revlimit as well.

 

This is the beauty of gear type oil pumps, they tolerate pumping debris far better than gerotor or vane type pumps do, it's one of the reasons they're still the most commonly used pump type for dry sump pumps despite gerotors and vane pumps being more efficient and less cavitation prone. Looking at damage in the pump alone can be hard to tell if damage is from contaminants or starvation, kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.

When you add in the damage to the bearings, all mains and rods show fairly even wear and #1 rod (closest to oil supply) spun first, the scoring in the cylinder bores, and the scoring on the cams none of those are typical signs of starvation. The pump has tighter clearances than the rotating assembly so any contamination that's circulated through the engine is more likely to do more damage to the oil pump's gear shaft bores than the bearings in the rotating assembly.

Also, this photo tells a good story too. Specifically looking at the damage on the radial surface of the pump housing. Typically when pumps incur damage from starvation it's the axial (thrust) surfaces that get damaged the most, but in the damage on the axial surfaces is really not all that bad. Damage on radial surfaces can only be caused by debris getting caught between the gear teeth and the housing or the shaft bores being wallowed out so far that the teeth can contact the housing, but if the latter were the case we would see more axial surface wear as well on one half of the axial face.



In my experience, the biggest sign of contamination is inconsistent wear, because oil may be even distributed in the lubrication system but contaminants are not. I would definitely call most of the wear surfaces inconsistently worn. Where it came from is anyone's guess, it could've been left over from a previous failure, it could've been leftover from some manufacturing process on a new part, or it could have stemmed from something that made its way into the engine during the assembly process.

As to why the oil didn't look bad, I've seen plenty of oil that looked fine come back with failure level lab results after they got tested. If you can visually see that the oil is contaminated then you're more often than not already too late. Look at BMW S54 engines for example, the rod bearings are a proven maintenance item. Those rod bearings will wear significantly until they eventually spin (even with moderate street driving), but the oil changes rarely appear to show signs of contamination, that's why people either religiously send oil samples out for testing and/or replace the rod bearings as preventative maintenance.

 

I have been on these forums for a long time but this is a first time I have seen someone blame a proven and well engineered part for a failure clearly caused by something else. The delusion in your posts is like a Karen who asks to speak to the manager because their ice cream melted in the sun. Clearly when we thought the Evo would fade into obscurity and ride into the sunset we thought the owners would become less intelligent and destroy their Evos because they lacked the common sense to drive a turbocharged 4 cylinder. Now I see that I was being optimistic in that prophecy.

 

WTH is wrong with you. I have not asked for the manager or asked for a refund. You're just making things up in your head. I thought I have seen the worst groupie bias prior to this post

 

I read a lot about contamination here and since the start I know its a chicken or the egg situation. My previous motor didnt have this much finer scratches so I guess the difference is debris from break-in miles that wont come out. This can easily be proven i think. My oil pan has been drained and removed, i even carried it sideways and it still has the debris in there. Some of you even claim it takes effort to remove contamination but on the other hand claim the oil pan doesn't trap the crap and that it drains with the oil just fine.

I thought it might be obvious this this scratch is from when it was being dismantled. it was lunch break when I came and asked the shop owner to dismantle the oil pump. Its throw away part(s) so he was just using an impact gun and that impact screw driver/hammer. I got called over twice to hold the pump/shaft. similarly people already ran their hands on the cylinder walls and I didnt bother to clean it to take the pic

 

Debris from "normal" break-in drains out fine. When an engine is being broken in, you can send oil for analysis and while wear metals will seem on high side, if you tell the lab its a fresh break-in they will say everything looks fine considering that. Especially because for break in you will only see iron (from the block) and *maybe* some aluminum from the pistons. You won't really see bearing material as bearings don't actually break in, they're not even supposed to touch the crank as they're supposed to ride on the hydraulic wedge of oil.

This is NOT the same as debris that comes from a catastrophic failure, or even insufficiently cleaned parts when doing a rebuild after a failure. This can be large amounts (and large chunks) of bearing material, iron from the crank/rod/block, and sometimes aluminum also if the contaminants make it to the cylinder walls and wear the piston.

 

Between rebuilds was the oil cooler replaced? I have heard that the small passages in the oil cooler can hold and release metal from past failures.
Most seem to say always replace the oil cooler when rebuilding an engine with bearing failure.

The regulator should not be an issue since you set it with a pressure gauge and it uses a stock spring internally.

The trap doors are slightly above the floor of the pan so oil drains will allow most if not all of the oil out during oil changes. Some debris could hang up against the back of the baffles. But you would have to have metal in the pan for that to happen.

Welded modified pans are common in motor sports so I don't think IE pan has any special issues due to that.

Sucks that you have had these engine failures sorry to hear that.

I would use clay to confirm the oil pickup is not to close to the pan bottom. I would install a new oil cooler core might have to be Aftermarket not sue if OEM is still made.

I have had no problem with my engine or the IE oil pan. But you track yours. I plan to but I have not Rev limit on mine is 7800 and it has seen that.

Mitsuatb

 

what i'm saying is IF THIS contamination ISSUE is since the build or anytime before the rod knock then maybe some debris gets caught by the oil filter (I doubted is purpose for a bit based on what i read here) and some more-visible more-alarming-sized debris would come out with the used oil. Sure a lab can tell more even without large bits in the oil. Weekend racers dont have that luxury though (this is part of my specific situation). IF that service is required then its should be made clear, unless it was and I missed it.
IF there were "large amounts (and large chunks) " in there then why wouldnt some of them come out in the at least 7 oil changes between 2 motors? Do they stay or not? Did they start staying more since the oil pan upgrade? I'm not really asking anymore. Just describing what I think people are suggesting based on their speculation. connecting the dots. and also "setting aside" unrelated hunches, claims, other people's IE pan ownership experience, professional race team oil inspection procedure, to name a few.

 

This is the last post I'm going to make on this because it has become a major thread derail for a thread about Mike's oil pan. The pan is absolutely not the root cause of these engine failures.

The damage to your engine is done, take a good look at what everyone here who's built these engines has said and use it to make sure you don't have another similar issue with your next engine. We're not trying to throw things in your face or call you dumb, we want to see you succeed and not have seemingly obscure issues like this anymore. We are a community after all and we're trying to help guide you with our own experiences and failures; at the end of the day only you can make these decisions for yourself. I hope this is the last time you have to deal with an engine failure.

 

Yes. i mentioned this caused a delay because the builder didnt order the part early but want to make sure everything is clean. we are replacing it again.

I'm aware. Just exploring if there are risks and trade offs I didnt consider earlier

My simpler technique for this type of clearance check is a wet lightly-crumpled/folded paper towel. clearance is fine. we got large metal bits inside the pickup so yeah it picks up fine clearance-wise.

Mine was fine too, for a time, until its not. We bought this pan because it addressed a specific issue with the oil sloshing around at certain track maneuvers. I'm sure you'll be fine in that respect. I am however trying keep the discussion regarding my specific autox maneuver, and maybe engine maintenance procedures with these aftermarket oil pans.

 

In that statement we obviously have the same goal but you needed to "lecture" me on this. It would also be lecturing if I dont question or get additional clarification on whats being said on here. I deal with "pros" every now and then, and i think its up to the consumer to connect the statements and figure out what makes sense. good to know if I'm taking on risk or need to be more diligent.
This is MY oil pan now and I want to figure it out . I did give it another chance didnt I? It's not uncommon to raise a (possible) issue and make progress out of that (possible solution). I fix bugs for a living. sometimes the anecdotal story is the key.