Oil filter doesn't filter when pressure accross the filter is great than 15-20psi. So, on cold starts, or at high rpm, etc. Contamination meaning, insufficient cleaning of everything before and during assembly. Engines need to be pretty sterile when they go together to keep everything happy. My machine shop has multiple cleaning steps- On arrival, all gally plugs are removed and the block is hot tanked in a solvent based hot tank. Machine work is performed and the block is then hot tanked, then it goes in an ultra sonic tank, then get oiled and bagged in a clean room. When I get it back to the shop, chase out all the thread holes, then give it a bath with soapy water it and use wire brushes to clean out the oil galleys oil it, and then it goes in the clean room and then I use ATF soaked lint free rags to wipe down the cylinder walls to remove any remaining honing grit from the cross hatching. It's a tedious process but it prevents issues.

Then, all parts are washed in my solvent tank and sprayed off with brake cleaner. Even if new parts look clean, they're not. Including bearings.

The oil pump doesn't look like it got starved, maybe a little light on assembly lube, and it probably some trash from the bearings.

Cams look normal unless you can catch your nail in any of the markings. But thats what GSC's new coating looks like with low miles.

 

I agree that it doesn't look like starvation, the pump would look far worse. I still suspect contamination over anything else unless some obvious smoking gun shows up elsewhere, but you've looked at all the normal things to inspect and based on the fact that the pump looks as good as it does yet the bearings are trashed and you have a fair amount of vertical scratches in the cylinder walls screams contamination to me. You will want to get those vertical scratches honed out as well or the engine will be prone to having ring seal issues on the next rebuild.

Like Sean said, the filter doesn't filter anything when the pressure bypass is open. Also, filters only catch large stuff, if enough small particulate matter goes through it there will still be damage to lubricated surfaces. Engine building is an extremely tedious process, and a large part of it is cleaning. Many new parts will take 2 rounds of cleaning to be "clean enough", parts that get reused and machined can take up to 4 rounds of cleaning to be clean enough. Hell I just recently cleaned my brand new Eagle crank and it took me most of 30 minutes just to get cleaned because they left polishing compound on the journals and I had to wash out the oil galleries to get all of it out.

 

Ignoring for a second that this is the 2nd motor i have immediately trashed using the IE pan, it is possible but very unlikely this was assembled with crap in it since everything was new. But following this contamination/keeping-it-clean idea, we change oil/filters frequently and more frequently when you have a fresh build to remove crap, cool. But look at the oil pan, it has a very large flat bottom and has several gated compartments. I can see that these compartments store metal bits/contamination because they don't drain with the oil no mater how frequently you change it. I can hose this and the crap will still not flow out with the wash. (obviously it gets worse if the drain plug/whole pan is magnetized or the engine is slightly tilted to any side when draining) Surely thats a design issue or a compromise we consumers should understand. we are not like some people who can drop the pan to check things out every oil change. Some of the experts out there cut oil filters to be sure, but I havent read that they also check the pan. they should, if it has a large flat bottom and have gated compartments. the gates only let oil/crap flow one direction btw. I knew and mentioned this when I posted about the first motor, I guess I doubled down. you dont need deductive reasoning or "backed up with data" for this guys

 

Does anyone know exactly what happened to the Gears & Gasoline guy's evo? He has the IE pan. I saw the latest videos but I didnt get a clear idea what's broken on his motor. It seems to be in trashed condition as well. @kyoo any idea about this?

 

hmmm I haven't kept up with him personally like I should have - I recall he's got a built motor of some sort, and once you've got a built motor I think this go out of the window in terms of what can go wrong. there's a reason I opted for an OEM short block. I do know that my RS tune was absolute phoned-in junk - the new tuner was pretty shocked at what he saw. I don't love the idea of dual map tunes as there's always gonna be a little pump and e85 mix. in short - no idea lol but I don't think it is pan related.

 

Was the block new? If it wasn't they need to remove every the gallery plug to clean the oiling system out.

I've done failure analysis on more failed engines than most people will see in their life, nothing here points to it being a starvation issue. If the shop didn't clean out the pan adequately that's still contamination and I would call that an assembly error.


Ben's engine suffered damage from ingesting parts of his compressor wheel when his turbo failed.

 

While what your saying can technically be right. contamination doesnt just materialise out of the pan. The person assembling the engine has a responsibility to ensure that all components are cleaned prior to install.

 

I'm on the fence calling these things "built motors" the difference between my original motor and the buschur 2.0 was 5hp. this one feels about the same with OE crank and some more parts to reduce NVH and definitely much more smoother running. I personally prefer dual map. E85 is everywhere here. I just do a drain-fill-drain before I race on e85 again. and my tank is always full when garaged

 

Yes I agreed to that already that its "a" possibility I am not sure why we spend too much time on that. contamination doesnt materialise, thats why my post is about *accumulation*. old and new contamination. preventive maintenance is out the door with the IE pan. I appreciate very much that you read my post tho

 

Engines don't make enough metal to hurt themselves, unless theyre hurting themselves (if that makes sense), or they weren't cleaned properly during assembly. The metal that is made during break-in does get caught by the filter. Baffled pans drain out the oil just fine with a healthy engine. If you experience a catastrophic failure like spun bearings, they are a pain to clean and get the excessive material out. We usually cut them open to do this.

These are built engines, you just didn't do some of the other upgrades to make more power. The same small turbocharger can only do so much, and when you're talking stock turbo or a 71hta, you can usually just spike more boost and make more torque with upgraded rods becuase they can handle it, bu tpeak power stays the same-ish.

If a car is running pump ethanol, it should be on flex fuel.

We are spending time on contamination because your engine and all parts/components look like they weren't cleaned thoroughly on during assembly based on the damage trend we see. If the pan wasn't cleaned thoroughly (it can literally takes HOURS to clean them after a bearing failure), your seconded engine started its life eating the bearing material from the previous failure and it was not long for this world from the start.

Were there any filter cuts done in the the 3 initial oil chnages?

 

I see we're still stuck on that. 2 motors, 2 race shops, all new parts, several oil changes and oil filters. Filter working/not working. I did not try to save money by going to an unproven shop (this guy was a crew chief for a race team, but sure, there are other technicians/specialists involved). I've had delays with this motor since they are keeping things clean (mentioned in conversations during the build) and not ordering the new oil cooler early on. I used my backup turbo and lifters since I understand the required cleanliness and effort theyre already putting on cleaning. They have not lost any engine this way in their 36 years of experience. but if were still blaming it on incompetence then I think thats quite uncalled for. but fine, this is whos left on these forums. maybe chances are slim but it happened to me. twice. the first one was fine for YEARS until the IE pan was installed, so whatever.
Mike/fabricators/engineers/rocket scientists/engine builders/all of us are just good enough at our jobs to still make small mistakes that could cause an inconvenience, catastrophic damage/big losses or death(s). I have to buy $8mm insurance for that for my own practice :P Anyway, thanks for trying to give us new products and support.

 

I’ve put (2) IE pans on (2) different evos with no issues.

I have the OG v1 IE pan on my car. Bartley(you met him at nationals) co-drove with me for 1-2 years on my evo and I have been to a few HPDE events. We also put an IE pan on meathooker’s evo that Bartley bought with a fresh motor from ER and no issues.

 

I was responding to kyoo but yes I wanted more headroom for reliability (if possible) instead of pushing the "motor built with some aftermarket parts". Maybe push it later, but I dont get that opportunity. Personally I got a lot more mileage from my stock motor
I dont think any filter were cut. break-in oil looked normal. my oil catch has a spot for draining the filter to see what comes out. I know that's not the same as cutting the filter. The oil *that came out during other oil changes* look normal too.

 

Yes I know it can go for miles and miles with no problems. Years for people who keeps their car garaged, or in regions with smaller venues, whatevs. I hit the 8500 red line while doing sweepers and very spaced out slalom sections (houston region is kinda blessed/cursed with grippy venues), on both motors when it failed (thats on me). Even this might not be the problem or contributed to the final outcome, keeping an open mind here. Just putting it out there. And hoping the design could be revisited. We'll keep selling/buying aftermarket parts/services.
Do you know anyone who wants used IE pan?

 

Did the shops that built the motor tune them as well or was it the same tuner? Maybe it’s a tune issue? I don’t know.

Isn’t Kevin from Evolution Dynamics in Texas? Maybe he might be a good resource for you to reach out to on your next build. Or send everything to Sean