InfiniteEvo's Wet Sump Thread
Increasing drainage from the pan during oil changes to account for large debris isn't a solution to anything for the reasons LetsGetThisDone already covered:
In short, if you have debris that large in the oil pan it already came from somewhere else and it already had a lot of time to move through the engine. By the time you have debris large enough to get caught under those passages, you have bigger problems. An oil change can't reverse that damage.
Really sorry about losing two motors, but perhaps it's best for everyone if you started a separate thread for the motors failures? Given that the pan is being used successfully by many other people with significantly more mileage on their builds without issue, it doesn't seem reasonable to discuss your motor failures in the context of a thread about the oil pan.
If there is "large debris" in the oil, the engine is already ****ed. An oil change isn't going to save it.
When we're talking about "debris" in the oil from say, the break in process, we're talking metal filings in the 10-20-30-40-50 micron range. Thats it. For an idea, 50 microns is 0.00197", basically a smidge smaller (.0002"-.0003") than the oil clearance in the rod bearing. I'd argue you probably won't even see anything that is 50 micron in the oil of a healthy engine, except maybe on the first break in heat cycle where the rings are really fresh. This why the baffles in the pan are not a concern for draining oil and "debris" from normal engine operation. The debris is hardly even visible to the naked eye.
Everyone in here is pointing towards it not being the pan. Which should only help your case with your shop.
When we're talking about "debris" in the oil from say, the break in process, we're talking metal filings in the 10-20-30-40-50 micron range. Thats it. For an idea, 50 microns is 0.00197", basically a smidge smaller (.0002"-.0003") than the oil clearance in the rod bearing. I'd argue you probably won't even see anything that is 50 micron in the oil of a healthy engine, except maybe on the first break in heat cycle where the rings are really fresh. This why the baffles in the pan are not a concern for draining oil and "debris" from normal engine operation. The debris is hardly even visible to the naked eye.
Everyone in here is pointing towards it not being the pan. Which should only help your case with your shop.
Really sorry about losing two motors, but perhaps it's best for everyone if you started a separate thread for the motors failures? Given that the pan is being used successfully by many other people with significantly more mileage on their builds without issue, it doesn't seem reasonable to discuss your motor failures in the context of a thread about the oil pan.
Sorry to hear about your issues ViciousLSD.
If there was contamination in the oil pan, the oil pump surfaces should look absolutely horrible. There are some scratches on it, but it doesn't look as bad as other pumps i've seen.
The oil filter should only go into bypass if it's full of junk. I've done some pressure delta testing on oil filters and if they are new (not full), it's near zero pressure loss (1-3psi).
If there was contamination in the oil pan, the oil pump surfaces should look absolutely horrible. There are some scratches on it, but it doesn't look as bad as other pumps i've seen.
The oil filter should only go into bypass if it's full of junk. I've done some pressure delta testing on oil filters and if they are new (not full), it's near zero pressure loss (1-3psi).
If the filter becomes so clogged that it can't pass oil, the bypass valve opens to at least keep oil flowing. Of course, by the time your filter is clogged with that much debris you have bigger problems.
Increasing drainage from the pan during oil changes to account for large debris isn't a solution to anything for the reasons LetsGetThisDone already covered:
In short, if you have debris that large in the oil pan it already came from somewhere else and it already had a lot of time to move through the engine. By the time you have debris large enough to get caught under those passages, you have bigger problems. An oil change can't reverse that damage.
Really sorry about losing two motors, but perhaps it's best for everyone if you started a separate thread for the motors failures? Given that the pan is being used successfully by many other people with significantly more mileage on their builds without issue, it doesn't seem reasonable to discuss your motor failures in the context of a thread about the oil pan.
In short, if you have debris that large in the oil pan it already came from somewhere else and it already had a lot of time to move through the engine. By the time you have debris large enough to get caught under those passages, you have bigger problems. An oil change can't reverse that damage.
Really sorry about losing two motors, but perhaps it's best for everyone if you started a separate thread for the motors failures? Given that the pan is being used successfully by many other people with significantly more mileage on their builds without issue, it doesn't seem reasonable to discuss your motor failures in the context of a thread about the oil pan.
Regarding starting another thread, why do you think this is out-of-topic. My post are more relevant to motorsports is it not? or Is this a vendor thread to everyone? we're really missing non-clique member views around here but whatevs.
Here's the Motorsports bit in case it was not clear. If you want to race, you'll need race parts. If you get race parts for a street car you need to understand what youre giving up to go faster. and you'll need race team maintenance procedures, You can't get good oil changes with racing oil pans the normal way, you have to take it off, inspect it and wash it (whatever method you prefer). If you're just not that committed well maybe you can just reevaluate your appetite for risk. An opportunity to weigh the pros and cons is fair enough.
Wow man. If you read my response I mentioned RTV has been known to cause oil system issues and destroy motors. Those are large pieces
Regarding starting another thread, why do you think this is out-of-topic. My post are more relevant to motorsports is it not? or Is this a vendor thread to everyone? we're really missing non-clique member views around here but whatevs.
Here's the Motorsports bit in case it was not clear. If you want to race, you'll need race parts. If you get race parts for a street car you need to understand what youre giving up to go faster. and you'll need race team maintenance procedures, You can't get good oil changes with racing oil pans the normal way, you have to take it off, inspect it and wash it (whatever method you prefer). If you're just not that committed well maybe you can just reevaluate your appetite for risk. An opportunity to weigh the pros and cons is fair enough.
Regarding starting another thread, why do you think this is out-of-topic. My post are more relevant to motorsports is it not? or Is this a vendor thread to everyone? we're really missing non-clique member views around here but whatevs.
Here's the Motorsports bit in case it was not clear. If you want to race, you'll need race parts. If you get race parts for a street car you need to understand what youre giving up to go faster. and you'll need race team maintenance procedures, You can't get good oil changes with racing oil pans the normal way, you have to take it off, inspect it and wash it (whatever method you prefer). If you're just not that committed well maybe you can just reevaluate your appetite for risk. An opportunity to weigh the pros and cons is fair enough.
Not being “cliquey” or a “groupie” here, but I think people are suggesting it because the thread is the IE oil pan thread. Some of your posts seem to try to point fingers to the pan causing issues, even if you’re not pointing fingers it seems like it(just from reading text) by suggesting modifications to the pan that maybe aren’t needed. Yes, it is the Motorsports subforum, but maybe a different thread could have been started to not derail this thread.
Originally Posted by Construct
That was my understanding of oil filter bypass valves: The pressure delta across the filter shouldn't be so high during normal operation that the bypass valve opens up.
If the filter becomes so clogged that it can't pass oil, the bypass valve opens to at least keep oil flowing. Of course, by the time your filter is clogged with that much debris you have bigger problems.
If the filter becomes so clogged that it can't pass oil, the bypass valve opens to at least keep oil flowing. Of course, by the time your filter is clogged with that much debris you have bigger problems.
@viciouslsd, what oil filter are you using?
I feel your pain on going through motors. My first motor I assembled my dumbass forgot to tighten the bolt on the balance shaft delete kit and it went through the block before I even got to drive it. So I do hope you are able to figure out what’s causing the issues because it can for sure be defeating.
Not being “cliquey” or a “groupie” here, but I think people are suggesting it because the thread is the IE oil pan thread. Some of your posts seem to try to point fingers to the pan causing issues, even if you’re not pointing fingers it seems like it(just from reading text) by suggesting modifications to the pan that maybe aren’t needed. Yes, it is the Motorsports subforum, but maybe a different thread could have been started to not derail this thread.
Not being “cliquey” or a “groupie” here, but I think people are suggesting it because the thread is the IE oil pan thread. Some of your posts seem to try to point fingers to the pan causing issues, even if you’re not pointing fingers it seems like it(just from reading text) by suggesting modifications to the pan that maybe aren’t needed. Yes, it is the Motorsports subforum, but maybe a different thread could have been started to not derail this thread.
it's all gonna be fine ( i tell myself)it is cliquey. everyone is parroting each other. Random guy suggests logging, next few guys parrot. i ask how logging helps in this situation. nada. One guy says "start a new thread", then the parroting.
I tried to be clear that "this post is not about my engine troubles" and talk more about generic race oil pan design considerations but people dont read, they just want to lecture and shut it down. Just take a look at your response, though it seems more considerate, its the same. I tried to blame things on myself(consumer) by making it clear its my responsibility to do good oil changes, when using any oil pan. I was asking about design considerations because, as I implied, I'm ok and would modify MY oil pan if I could. Just to loosen things up for oil changes. I mean the idea is simple enough. Now, guess where I got the idea about gremlin-stubborn-contaminants-hiding-in-there-for-5-oil-changes? from the clique.
I do put effort in moving the conversation forward, even if its like arguing with girls sometimes, 2 steps forward 2 steps back.
If it were me footing the bill for two motors, I think I'd probably have similar worries about what aftermarket bit caused the issue.
I stopped reading most the comments cause things just seemed very circular and I def see the hive mind mentality. So I figured best to stay out of it since at the end of the day, I dont really know what the cause was.
I did mention logging oil pressure though. Only reason is more of a lagging function for monitoring status. For instance I log fuel pressure and motec gives me differential fuel pressure. Thats shows me the difference between fuel pressure and boost so I can see if Im dropping. Thats how I know Im sloshing. Doesnt fix the sloshing but I know it exists before I continue with the issue.
Same thing would be for oil pressure. I have that logging as well and I just have a tab that looks at critical vitals to scan so I can see if on my runs that day anything looked wrong. Even if I had no issues, I would know something might be going south.
I stopped reading most the comments cause things just seemed very circular and I def see the hive mind mentality. So I figured best to stay out of it since at the end of the day, I dont really know what the cause was.
I did mention logging oil pressure though. Only reason is more of a lagging function for monitoring status. For instance I log fuel pressure and motec gives me differential fuel pressure. Thats shows me the difference between fuel pressure and boost so I can see if Im dropping. Thats how I know Im sloshing. Doesnt fix the sloshing but I know it exists before I continue with the issue.
Same thing would be for oil pressure. I have that logging as well and I just have a tab that looks at critical vitals to scan so I can see if on my runs that day anything looked wrong. Even if I had no issues, I would know something might be going south.
we're all just sharing opinions. its cool, gents
I did mention logging oil pressure though. Only reason is more of a lagging function for monitoring status. For instance I log fuel pressure and motec gives me differential fuel pressure. Thats shows me the difference between fuel pressure and boost so I can see if Im dropping. Thats how I know Im sloshing. Doesnt fix the sloshing but I know it exists before I continue with the issue.
Same thing would be for oil pressure. I have that logging as well and I just have a tab that looks at critical vitals to scan so I can see if on my runs that day anything looked wrong. Even if I had no issues, I would know something might be going south.
Same thing would be for oil pressure. I have that logging as well and I just have a tab that looks at critical vitals to scan so I can see if on my runs that day anything looked wrong. Even if I had no issues, I would know something might be going south.
Hi, yes I said that and I stand by the statement, the spelling not so much.
I have about 7000 miles on the IE pan without problems. Even with this being my first evo oil pan / clutch job.
Mitsuatb
I have about 7000 miles on the IE pan without problems. Even with this being my first evo oil pan / clutch job.
Mitsuatb
Glass Beads???
Glass Beads???
By all indications you are doing everything right. But the results are miserable.
This is a WAG, so just trying to find the issue as you are.
I have heard that the use of glass bead blasting should be avoided on any internal Aluminum or Magnesium part. This is due to the chance that the beads will embed in the soft material and then be released later by vibration and heat cycling into the engine oil or intake. Some even blast the insides of the 4G63 valve cover after removing baffles ect.
If a prior owner had done this it would be hard to detect and could devastate the engine. Steel / iron doesn't have this problem, so front covers, valve covers, pistons, intakes, all could trigger a problem.
Oil analysis might pick this up since Silicon Dioxide is what glass is made of. Air filter issues could also cause a high SiO2 reading since sand and miot dust is the same thing.
Glass beading looks great and it is liberally used for that reason. For internal soft metal parts nothing harder than walnut shell should be used. Walnut shell is the cleaner used on Jet engines due to no damage to turbine blades. Nickle super alloy, not soft but even tiny damage causes smoking hole in the ground.
I don't know how common this knowledge is and it seems like the kind of fussy little detail that would cause issues of this sort.
Once again, best of luck.
Mitsuatb
By all indications you are doing everything right. But the results are miserable.
This is a WAG, so just trying to find the issue as you are.
I have heard that the use of glass bead blasting should be avoided on any internal Aluminum or Magnesium part. This is due to the chance that the beads will embed in the soft material and then be released later by vibration and heat cycling into the engine oil or intake. Some even blast the insides of the 4G63 valve cover after removing baffles ect.
If a prior owner had done this it would be hard to detect and could devastate the engine. Steel / iron doesn't have this problem, so front covers, valve covers, pistons, intakes, all could trigger a problem.
Oil analysis might pick this up since Silicon Dioxide is what glass is made of. Air filter issues could also cause a high SiO2 reading since sand and miot dust is the same thing.
Glass beading looks great and it is liberally used for that reason. For internal soft metal parts nothing harder than walnut shell should be used. Walnut shell is the cleaner used on Jet engines due to no damage to turbine blades. Nickle super alloy, not soft but even tiny damage causes smoking hole in the ground.
I don't know how common this knowledge is and it seems like the kind of fussy little detail that would cause issues of this sort.
Once again, best of luck.
Mitsuatb
Yes. i mentioned this caused a delay because the builder didnt order the part early but want to make sure everything is clean. we are replacing it again.
I'm aware. Just exploring if there are risks and trade offs I didnt consider earlier
My simpler technique for this type of clearance check is a wet lightly-crumpled/folded paper towel. clearance is fine. we got large metal bits inside the pickup so yeah it picks up fine clearance-wise.
Mine was fine too, for a time, until its not. We bought this pan because it addressed a specific issue with the oil sloshing around at certain track maneuvers. I'm sure you'll be fine in that respect. I am however trying keep the discussion regarding my specific autox maneuver, and maybe engine maintenance procedures with these aftermarket oil pans.
I'm aware. Just exploring if there are risks and trade offs I didnt consider earlier
My simpler technique for this type of clearance check is a wet lightly-crumpled/folded paper towel. clearance is fine. we got large metal bits inside the pickup so yeah it picks up fine clearance-wise.
Mine was fine too, for a time, until its not. We bought this pan because it addressed a specific issue with the oil sloshing around at certain track maneuvers. I'm sure you'll be fine in that respect. I am however trying keep the discussion regarding my specific autox maneuver, and maybe engine maintenance procedures with these aftermarket oil pans.
I believe you will be fine for thousands more miles, with any oil pan for that matter. I was pointing out that *I* fell for it, your professional opinion and the data we all saw. but in that statement you also believed mitsubishi knows what theyre doing. that said, my current position(i should have known this earlier) that upgrading something operational range wise may mean sacrificing something else. I want the full range if possible if it was truly an upgrade for a street car . brake pads, tires, low tech suspension stuff are like that too. if it cant be full range then of course theres always the *motorsports/off road use only" reminder that consumers need to understandI do know you're not part of the clique, so your statement mattered a bit more to me. Thanks a lot bro j/k. Can i ask you what you think made this pan better than the original pan? just curious
Right turns will send oil away from the pickup. Acceleration will send oil to the back of the pan also away from the pickup. Oil return is at the back of the pan also away from the pickup. The additional 1.5 quarts also keeps oil available longer. Adjustability of oil peak pressure to reduce power loss if running heavy oil.
Trap doors to limit oil to a box around the pickup. Return at the front of the pan so acceleration refills the oil trap and limits oil moving forward under braking.
If you drove without acceleration and only made left turns none of this would be needed.
You see people building Dyno Monsters on youtube and the next week they are blown. What's the difference between street / track and dyno? The answer is acceleration and related oil starvation.
Mitsuatb
Trap doors to limit oil to a box around the pickup. Return at the front of the pan so acceleration refills the oil trap and limits oil moving forward under braking.
If you drove without acceleration and only made left turns none of this would be needed.
You see people building Dyno Monsters on youtube and the next week they are blown. What's the difference between street / track and dyno? The answer is acceleration and related oil starvation.
Mitsuatb
Glass Beads???
By all indications you are doing everything right. But the results are miserable.
This is a WAG, so just trying to find the issue as you are.
I have heard that the use of glass bead blasting should be avoided on any internal Aluminum or Magnesium part. This is due to the chance that the beads will embed in the soft material and then be released later by vibration and heat cycling into the engine oil or intake. Some even blast the insides of the 4G63 valve cover after removing baffles ect.
If a prior owner had done this it would be hard to detect and could devastate the engine. Steel / iron doesn't have this problem, so front covers, valve covers, pistons, intakes, all could trigger a problem.
Oil analysis might pick this up since Silicon Dioxide is what glass is made of. Air filter issues could also cause a high SiO2 reading since sand and miot dust is the same thing.
Glass beading looks great and it is liberally used for that reason. For internal soft metal parts nothing harder than walnut shell should be used. Walnut shell is the cleaner used on Jet engines due to no damage to turbine blades. Nickle super alloy, not soft but even tiny damage causes smoking hole in the ground.
I don't know how common this knowledge is and it seems like the kind of fussy little detail that would cause issues of this sort.
Once again, best of luck.
Mitsuatb
By all indications you are doing everything right. But the results are miserable.
This is a WAG, so just trying to find the issue as you are.
I have heard that the use of glass bead blasting should be avoided on any internal Aluminum or Magnesium part. This is due to the chance that the beads will embed in the soft material and then be released later by vibration and heat cycling into the engine oil or intake. Some even blast the insides of the 4G63 valve cover after removing baffles ect.
If a prior owner had done this it would be hard to detect and could devastate the engine. Steel / iron doesn't have this problem, so front covers, valve covers, pistons, intakes, all could trigger a problem.
Oil analysis might pick this up since Silicon Dioxide is what glass is made of. Air filter issues could also cause a high SiO2 reading since sand and miot dust is the same thing.
Glass beading looks great and it is liberally used for that reason. For internal soft metal parts nothing harder than walnut shell should be used. Walnut shell is the cleaner used on Jet engines due to no damage to turbine blades. Nickle super alloy, not soft but even tiny damage causes smoking hole in the ground.
I don't know how common this knowledge is and it seems like the kind of fussy little detail that would cause issues of this sort.
Once again, best of luck.
Mitsuatb
But this happened twice, on the same track at the same section at the same rpm range. just a few race-miles apart. Assuming the builder will do better, I have to do better. I have to change something (i already changed builders) and buck the trend . I could change my oil brand, i have to change my rev limit(without being ridiculed here) or shift like it was on a track(not autox) and I have to rollback the changes to what it was. I have to improve my oil change/inspection procedure before I make another bet. Hey who knows, I may destroy another engine