local Pittsburgh Meet
I was thinking of coming to this meet you guys are having then realize that the 21st is the NOPI Nationals over here at NRP. You guys should reschedule and come over to the race. Going to be a lot of fast cars and records set. Also we are having a garage sale here on Friday. Make a weekend out of it.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Got directed to this thread. I am reading a bunch of crap on page 229 about SBR's dyno and ours and numbers.
Here are my responses.
First off, you are correct, you cannot compare a $75,000 Mustand Dyno to a $120,000 Dynapak but not in the way you were trying to put your point across. The Dynapak calculates HP with the same mathematics that Dynojet does, that's obvious by both the Dyndapak and Dynojet spitting out almost identical numbers, both of which are rediculously high and BS. The BS is factual as they just interviewed the owner, designer, originator of Dynojet a few months ago who admitted the numbers are scewed to match FLYWHEEL numbers. This is fact, please don't waste time argueing about it.
Here are my responses.
First off, you are correct, you cannot compare a $75,000 Mustand Dyno to a $120,000 Dynapak but not in the way you were trying to put your point across. The Dynapak calculates HP with the same mathematics that Dynojet does, that's obvious by both the Dyndapak and Dynojet spitting out almost identical numbers, both of which are rediculously high and BS. The BS is factual as they just interviewed the owner, designer, originator of Dynojet a few months ago who admitted the numbers are scewed to match FLYWHEEL numbers. This is fact, please don't waste time argueing about it.
Is the Mustang dyno in question a 2 roller (1 per axle) or a 4 roller (2 per axle)? It makes a difference.
First off, Dynapack and Dynojet do not use the same math - that statement alone is enough to destroy the credibility of the whole post. The physics of the two machines make it totally impossible to use the same math. They work on totally different principles and different math is required.
Dynojet - is not a device that measures torque. It measures acceleration of a known mass. So they measure acceleration over a period of time, and then calculate the average power required to accelerate the mass at that rate. That power level (plus a known fudge factor they add in) x 5252 / Avg engine RPM in the sample period = torque. So torque is a calculated number derived from an acceleration rate, a "flywheel fudge factor", and an average RPM - kinda fuzzy, but it works OK for what it was designed to do. Also, remember that the power is the acceleration of the roller - not necessarily the same as the power made by the drive axle.
Dynapack measures torque and RPM directly on the axle. RPM is sampled in 1 RPM increments, and actual measured torque for that 1 RPM is multiplied by the axle RPM number / 5252 = actual power on the axle. Pretty direct and simple. Engine RPM is calculated as axle RPM x gear ratio. Flywheel torque is calculated as axle torque / gear ratio x correction factor (if any - most use 1.0 or no correction). This is as close as it gets to direct measurement on a chassis dyno.
So why does a Mustang dyno read lower than a Dynapack? Because it has tires and rollers, and these things have drag and power loss. If it has 4 rollers and 4 wheels, it has a lot of it.
Things you can do to reduce power numbers on a roller dyno:
4 rollers = more drag
small rollers = more drag
wide tires = more drag
sticky tires = more drag
lower tire pressure = more drag
more vehicle weight = more drag
more strap tension = more drag
more camber (from zero) = more drag
More toe in/out = more drag (x2 for AWD)
Heavier wheels and tires = more accel loss
Wheelspin = power loss on the dyno
All of these things will cost you power. On a AWD car, MANY of these things are present. If he has a 4 roller Mustang, the car has wide, sticky tires, with a good amount of toe in the front and rear, lots of camber, tight straps and large/heavy wheels and tires (sounds like a lot of EVO's I've seen), then is it a wonder that you are getting a reading that is lower than a machine that has NONE of these power losses? We are talking about machines that are reading different things. We read what the axle does directly, Mustang reads what the roller did directly. What the roller did isn't the same thing as the torque on the axle - for all of the reasons above.
It isn't an issue of "which dyno is right" - they are both right - they are measuring different things in a different way. It really only matters when guys are trying to one-up each other on the internet and have to have comparable numbers - no two dyno's that I know of have perfectly comparable numbers for a number of reasons.
First off, Dynapack and Dynojet do not use the same math - that statement alone is enough to destroy the credibility of the whole post. The physics of the two machines make it totally impossible to use the same math. They work on totally different principles and different math is required.
Dynojet - is not a device that measures torque. It measures acceleration of a known mass. So they measure acceleration over a period of time, and then calculate the average power required to accelerate the mass at that rate. That power level (plus a known fudge factor they add in) x 5252 / Avg engine RPM in the sample period = torque. So torque is a calculated number derived from an acceleration rate, a "flywheel fudge factor", and an average RPM - kinda fuzzy, but it works OK for what it was designed to do. Also, remember that the power is the acceleration of the roller - not necessarily the same as the power made by the drive axle.
Dynapack measures torque and RPM directly on the axle. RPM is sampled in 1 RPM increments, and actual measured torque for that 1 RPM is multiplied by the axle RPM number / 5252 = actual power on the axle. Pretty direct and simple. Engine RPM is calculated as axle RPM x gear ratio. Flywheel torque is calculated as axle torque / gear ratio x correction factor (if any - most use 1.0 or no correction). This is as close as it gets to direct measurement on a chassis dyno.
So why does a Mustang dyno read lower than a Dynapack? Because it has tires and rollers, and these things have drag and power loss. If it has 4 rollers and 4 wheels, it has a lot of it.
Things you can do to reduce power numbers on a roller dyno:
4 rollers = more drag
small rollers = more drag
wide tires = more drag
sticky tires = more drag
lower tire pressure = more drag
more vehicle weight = more drag
more strap tension = more drag
more camber (from zero) = more drag
More toe in/out = more drag (x2 for AWD)
Heavier wheels and tires = more accel loss
Wheelspin = power loss on the dyno
All of these things will cost you power. On a AWD car, MANY of these things are present. If he has a 4 roller Mustang, the car has wide, sticky tires, with a good amount of toe in the front and rear, lots of camber, tight straps and large/heavy wheels and tires (sounds like a lot of EVO's I've seen), then is it a wonder that you are getting a reading that is lower than a machine that has NONE of these power losses? We are talking about machines that are reading different things. We read what the axle does directly, Mustang reads what the roller did directly. What the roller did isn't the same thing as the torque on the axle - for all of the reasons above.
It isn't an issue of "which dyno is right" - they are both right - they are measuring different things in a different way. It really only matters when guys are trying to one-up each other on the internet and have to have comparable numbers - no two dyno's that I know of have perfectly comparable numbers for a number of reasons.
Chris
SBR Sales
Last edited by C-Rolla; Oct 9, 2006 at 01:03 PM.
Oh lord here we go! I knew a rebutle was coming. Im still trying to figure out your last comment SBR Chris. Were you offended, that you had to call "somebody"? Okay that was kinda rude sorry. im outa this conversation.
Last edited by jerdeitzel; Oct 9, 2006 at 01:16 PM.
Jer,
Just block it out... thats what i'm doing, we use to have a civil type organization (if you'd like to call it that) in this thread.
Anyways check this out we got our diffusers today and here are the pics.
http://www.gnvmotorsports.com/catalo...fuser_evo3.jpg
http://www.gnvmotorsports.com/catalo...ffuser_evo.jpg
Just block it out... thats what i'm doing, we use to have a civil type organization (if you'd like to call it that) in this thread.
Anyways check this out we got our diffusers today and here are the pics.
http://www.gnvmotorsports.com/catalo...fuser_evo3.jpg
http://www.gnvmotorsports.com/catalo...ffuser_evo.jpg
By no means did I mean to start any problems.
Jer - I'm not sure what you meant, but it takes a lot to offend me. You could call me thick shelled. DB will agree with you on that one.
Either way, I hoped for a civilized conversation.
Jer - I'm not sure what you meant, but it takes a lot to offend me. You could call me thick shelled. DB will agree with you on that one.
Either way, I hoped for a civilized conversation.
Good advice Steve. I've just had a hell of time on forums lately. i need to stop reading these things. Hey im also wondering about those new ss1x wheels? why don't you pm me a price.
Did any of you guys get tickets or are interested in seeing saliva on the gateway clipper the 27th of october? I got my tickets today $23.00, ya cant beat it...Live music, 3 hrs. out on the river....good times 
Just putting it out there, posts pile up on this thread like crazy anymore. Just incase anyone missed my earlier post.....
Link to purchase tickets:
http://www.gatewayclipper.com/
Just putting it out there, posts pile up on this thread like crazy anymore. Just incase anyone missed my earlier post.....
Link to purchase tickets:
http://www.gatewayclipper.com/
Originally Posted by GNV Motorsports
How about Eric needs to come to the meet!!! he has become a phantom!
Steve
GnV Motorsports
Steve
GnV Motorsports
If the Eric you are talking about is me then yes im sorry lol.. Have been up here at IUP for the past 3 months. I work EVERY STINKING weekend, and have about 1.5 free hours per week to enjoy.. College if fun though, i would love to come to another meet, but my saturdays are normally taken from 10 AM till around 11PMish
I guess since i cancelled my wheels, and my clutch fell though, i have a lump of cash to play with..
What to do.. What to do..
OHH, BTW thanks for telling me happy BirthDay!!! it was today the 9th...
Im at the library, since my computer took a poop on me for the past 4 days.. stupid internet, atleast it still allows me to play poker online and blow more money
Well you never told us it was your bday!!!!!!!!! HAPPY BDAY ERIC.... WAHOOO!!! Vroom vroooooom!
As for money, we got APR fiberglass diffusers in stock, if your interested let me know and i'll set you up with a nice birthday price.
As for college, i hear ya man. I run GnV full time, and i am a double major at RMU in Business Management and Accounting. And college is def fun, however i love my evo meets more than college (feel special guys).
So we gonna see you on the world poker 2007 tour? hahah
Steve
As for money, we got APR fiberglass diffusers in stock, if your interested let me know and i'll set you up with a nice birthday price.
As for college, i hear ya man. I run GnV full time, and i am a double major at RMU in Business Management and Accounting. And college is def fun, however i love my evo meets more than college (feel special guys).
So we gonna see you on the world poker 2007 tour? hahah
Steve
Originally Posted by GNV Motorsports
Well you never told us it was your bday!!!!!!!!! HAPPY BDAY ERIC.... WAHOOO!!! Vroom vroooooom!
As for money, we got APR fiberglass diffusers in stock, if your interested let me know and i'll set you up with a nice birthday price.
As for college, i hear ya man. I run GnV full time, and i am a double major at RMU in Business Management and Accounting. And college is def fun, however i love my evo meets more than college (feel special guys).
So we gonna see you on the world poker 2007 tour? hahah
Steve
As for money, we got APR fiberglass diffusers in stock, if your interested let me know and i'll set you up with a nice birthday price.
As for college, i hear ya man. I run GnV full time, and i am a double major at RMU in Business Management and Accounting. And college is def fun, however i love my evo meets more than college (feel special guys).
So we gonna see you on the world poker 2007 tour? hahah
Steve
As for the world poker tour... i just blew $80 in 2 hands. if i dont win it back with the remaining money i have on my account im done!!!! forever!!! like i was 2 weeks ago!!! lol cant stop please call the addiction hotline for me!! just messing..
Anyways, the rear diff looks AWESOME whats it look like on a car? can does it fit a stock bumper or do i need that JDM crap to run it?
Pm me with that bday price, maybe my GF will buy it for me ...


