he only appears to do good tunes if you're buying only APS parts from him & spending at least $2k/month at his shop. just like the $1950 he charges to do Renntech flashes when Renntech is the one actually flashing the cars!!!!! his shop is nice, his shop STI is fast, & he gets tons of MB business but he's not all there on evos. he tried selling a guy an APS CAI kit for an '05 not realizing the front diff resevoir was in the way in place of the i/c tank...

 

Very valid point carlos. Rich is very good with cars and ECUs in general. But so every one is not fighting all night why doesnt some one call rich in the morning and ask him why he did it. I am sure he will have a valid answer. Ever think to do that?

 

regardless if that tune on that dyno is safe or not, those AFRS are way way way too high for a car that will be beat on for 20min+ sessions on a open track with only 100 octane.

If you want to be able to beat on your car all day long on the open track with 25psi peak on 100 octane, aim for 11.8 AFR max with 20 degrees max timing.

Personally, my 100 octane tune is running 24psi peak with 20 degrees timing and a 11.6 AFR.

Evo's like to run a little rich for max power.

A healthy AFR, timing and boost combo for the octane gas you are using makes it able to last in a open track environment.

1/4 miles tunes are a whole nother' world...

 

Mitch,

I am not even getting involved to that level, specially because the customer(Lukitry) had a chance to choose other tuners among them Dynoflash.

I wouldn't even bother to call Rich, tunings are not my speciality, I am average guy so instead of making irrelevant comments about someone's tuning I rather not even comment.

Hey Mitch, I hope everything is good about your family .

Carlos

 

HouseDJ,

This world is so small(sarcasticly speaking), you just mentioned about the APS CAI for the EVO 8 05. I perfectly recal when I got my car I called Richard in Sep-Oct 04 inquiring on that specific product but my car was so new that he did not know if they even make it , later on we found out exactly what you just said..

Carlos

 

All i run is 100 in my car. I have over 19k miles on 100 octane. I run 11.5 AFR's with 25 degrees of timing at low rpms ramping down to 10 at peak torque and ramping back up to 20 at 7500. 1.5v on the knock sensor!! I could get away with 12.0 but i figure its a little bit of insurance running a little rich in the heat...... Ray

 

once again full of nonsense and half truths. i dont know where you r getting your info but this just shows you dont know the whole story and what does renntech have to do with it? maybe you should not get your info from the so called "shop in mesa" before posting again

 

Hey Mitch, I hope everything is good about your family .

[/QUOTE]

Thanks buddy I appreciate it!!

 

Here's a link I was just reading in regards to AF ratios. I doubt it will clarify anything here, but for me, it was worth the read.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=190922

 

Basically what it boils down to, you don't need to run 11:1 A/F. if you don't know what you are doing with tuning, then certainly stay super rich to sort of "mask" your errors. the factory tunes really rich for safety and reliability, but 11:1 ratio is not a max power tune (IIRC lambda of .85-.9 is ideal, which will put you at 12.5-13:1. if you are going to tune for that range, you need to be spot on with your A/F ratios... you need to know the latency of the sensor and readout, you need to know what timing you can run, and you need to know how consistant your boost is. boost spikes with A/F ratios close to stoic will be disasterous if you didn't tune for them.
this is only the tip of the iceburg really. i suggest reading some books on it if your interested in tuning your car.


Found this

 

Go ahead and tune your car for 12.5-13.1 and let me know how long your car lasts. Evos like to run semi rich. They actually make more consistant power on pump gas with richer tunes then leaner tunes.

A 12.5-13.1 AFR tune on a open-track car that isn't rebuilt after every event is dumb. There, I said it, dumb. Tuning for the street, the 1/4 mile and the open track are three totally different worlds and ways to tune for safe and good power.

If you mix and make your own gas and you know every single batch is going to be exactly the same as the last, then go ahead, tune to the ragged edge for that extra 10whp.

but what do I know, I've only been tuning 4G63T's for over 9yrs.

 

Give me your 9 yrs of expert advice on this write up, is it a write up for a specific vehicle or is this theory just dumb? "I think runing a EVO at that A/F is crazy also"




Application Note: You CAN be too Rich

By Klaus Allmendinger, VP of Engineering, Innovate Motorsports
Many people with turbochargers believe that they need to run at very rich mixtures. The theory is that the excess fuel cools the intake charge and therefore reduces the probability of knock. It does work in reducing knock, but not because of charge cooling. The following little article shows why.

First let’s look at the science. Specific heat is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kg of material by one degree K (Kelvin, same as Celsius but with 0 point at absolute zero). Different materials have different specific heats. The energy is measured in kJ or kilojoules:

Air ~ 1 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Gasoline 2.02 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Water 4.18 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Ethanol 2.43 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Methanol 2.51 kJ/( kg * deg K)

Fuel and other liquids also have what's called latent heat. This is the heat energy required to vaporize 1 kg of the liquid. The fuel in an internal combustion engine has to be vaporized and mixed thoroughly with the incoming air to produce power. Liquid gasoline does not burn. The energy to vaporize the fuel comes partially from the incoming air, cooling it. The latent heat energy required is actually much larger than the specific heat. That the energy comes from the incoming air can be easily seen on older carbureted cars, where frost can actually form on the intake manifold from the cooling of the charge.

The latent heat values of different liquids are shown here:

Gasoline 350 kJ/kg
Water 2256 kJ/kg
Ethanol 904 kJ/kg
Methanol 1109 kJ/kg

Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5. This means that for every kg of air, 0.08 kg of fuel is mixed in and vaporized. The vaporization of the fuel extracts 28 kJ of energy from the air charge. If the mixture has an air-fuel-ratio of 11 instead, the vaporization extracts 31.8 kJ instead. A difference of 3.8 kJ. Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.

If instead of the richer mixture about 10% (by mass) of water would be injected in the intake charge (0.008 kg Water/kg air), the high latent heat of the water would cool the charge by 18 degrees, about 4 times the cooling effect of the richer mixture. The added fuel for the rich mixture can't burn because there is just not enough oxygen available. So it does not matter if fuel or water is added.

So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?

If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.

So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.

Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.

Optimum mix with “later” ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here’s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.

This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power.

 

+1000

 

Everyone who knows Rich knows he tuned very conservatively. He makes good power with less boost. Remember, this tune is on 100 oct.

 

Since we are reminding everyone, I should mention this is strictly a weekend car! I would never use this tune for daily driving!! not only is it extremely expensive for fuel , but its also extremely hot here in the summer months!! Its kind of nice to be me!!

Thanks to everyone on there thoughts and concerns!