Red vs Black on Pump
Dec 1, 2009, 07:18 PM
#1
Red vs Black on Pump
So since everyone has been asking, we decided to do a back to back test on a fairly common setup. Pumpgas, Red vs Black, same day, same boost, SAME TUNE. The car has the following mods:
Cosworth M2s
FP Beehives (I think)
Buschur Racing Turbo back no Cat
FIC 850s
Modded 255
Magnus cast intake
Stock TB
Stock Bottom end
ETS Magnus UICP w/Tial
ETS 3.5" Intercooler
Tru-boost
UEGO
Speed density conversion w/ Omnipower 4 bar
AEM Meth kit (unused for first portion of test)
This morning Lucas and I got up at about 0700 and headed to the dyno so we could get everything done in one day and make sure to keep it as even as possible. We also kept the correction factor on STD so there could be a good comparison no matter where you are in the country or what time of year. Here in the NW it is cool and low humidity so we made really good power today. It is of course less corrected, but this is a fair test so we let it rest where it might.
In order to keep the tune as close as possible I arbitrarily picked the boost level of 26.5psi (+/-) since this was technically just outside each turbo chargers happy place but it represents about the average for 91 as far as I have seen.
First pulls were double checking the car on low boost and getting the WG duty cycle set on the Tru-boost to where I wanted it too be. This car has been previously tuned on 92 & meth so I also needed to adjust fueling and spark on the first 2 pulls:
As you can see its not anywhere near the potential of a Red even on pump, since realistically we can probably push it to more like 27.5 on 92. Again I wanted to keep it consistent for those that cant run anything other 91. Unloaded the car off the dyno, drove it to the shop and let it cool down so we could throw the Black on it.
Going back to the dyno roughly 4 hours later I again started at low boost to make sure the AFR hadnt changed too much. Once I was satisfied I dialed the boost up to as close I could get it as it had been before. Here is the overlay of the 2 prior runs and the 2 Black runs:
There were absolutely no changes to fueling, spark, and boost I tried keeping as close as possible. I really think it was around 438-439 if the boost had been exact the whole pull. Its not possible though so we have the high/low of the 2 but you get the idea.
Since I love boost and so does the owner, Dan, we kept going on straight pump. This was with 1* more timing and a little more boost:
Daniel runs meth daily, so we started on that tune next. One thing that we changed since his full power Red runs (470 at 31psi) is we went back to 50/50 mix. Dan wanted to keep his pump life on the longer side but when you are using the biggest AEM jet (still only about 450cc) it really starts to hurt you. Final numbers at less boost and less timing (due to the meth):
The car is going to go back on 100% where I think we can get more timing and more boost. This tune isnt done nor does it show the end of the rope for the Black. There is far more in the turbo, but when you consider a small meth jet on daily driven stock block it isnt too shabby. The tune is pretty aggressive by my standards but reliability shouldnt be sacrificed so its not over the edge. I also feel that the Cosworth M2 cams are holding this car back as I have made almost as much power on S1s recently and that was with a MAF (lower boost level sheets...see this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...sh-racing.html )
Hope this answers some questions more than it raises.
Enjoy
Aaron
Cosworth M2s
FP Beehives (I think)
Buschur Racing Turbo back no Cat
FIC 850s
Modded 255
Magnus cast intake
Stock TB
Stock Bottom end
ETS Magnus UICP w/Tial
ETS 3.5" Intercooler
Tru-boost
UEGO
Speed density conversion w/ Omnipower 4 bar
AEM Meth kit (unused for first portion of test)
This morning Lucas and I got up at about 0700 and headed to the dyno so we could get everything done in one day and make sure to keep it as even as possible. We also kept the correction factor on STD so there could be a good comparison no matter where you are in the country or what time of year. Here in the NW it is cool and low humidity so we made really good power today. It is of course less corrected, but this is a fair test so we let it rest where it might.
In order to keep the tune as close as possible I arbitrarily picked the boost level of 26.5psi (+/-) since this was technically just outside each turbo chargers happy place but it represents about the average for 91 as far as I have seen.
First pulls were double checking the car on low boost and getting the WG duty cycle set on the Tru-boost to where I wanted it too be. This car has been previously tuned on 92 & meth so I also needed to adjust fueling and spark on the first 2 pulls:
As you can see its not anywhere near the potential of a Red even on pump, since realistically we can probably push it to more like 27.5 on 92. Again I wanted to keep it consistent for those that cant run anything other 91. Unloaded the car off the dyno, drove it to the shop and let it cool down so we could throw the Black on it.
Going back to the dyno roughly 4 hours later I again started at low boost to make sure the AFR hadnt changed too much. Once I was satisfied I dialed the boost up to as close I could get it as it had been before. Here is the overlay of the 2 prior runs and the 2 Black runs:
There were absolutely no changes to fueling, spark, and boost I tried keeping as close as possible. I really think it was around 438-439 if the boost had been exact the whole pull. Its not possible though so we have the high/low of the 2 but you get the idea.
Since I love boost and so does the owner, Dan, we kept going on straight pump. This was with 1* more timing and a little more boost:
Daniel runs meth daily, so we started on that tune next. One thing that we changed since his full power Red runs (470 at 31psi) is we went back to 50/50 mix. Dan wanted to keep his pump life on the longer side but when you are using the biggest AEM jet (still only about 450cc) it really starts to hurt you. Final numbers at less boost and less timing (due to the meth):
The car is going to go back on 100% where I think we can get more timing and more boost. This tune isnt done nor does it show the end of the rope for the Black. There is far more in the turbo, but when you consider a small meth jet on daily driven stock block it isnt too shabby. The tune is pretty aggressive by my standards but reliability shouldnt be sacrificed so its not over the edge. I also feel that the Cosworth M2 cams are holding this car back as I have made almost as much power on S1s recently and that was with a MAF (lower boost level sheets...see this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...sh-racing.html )
Hope this answers some questions more than it raises.
Enjoy
Aaron
Dec 1, 2009, 07:50 PM
#5
Evolved Member
iTrader: (54)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wow i am suprised the black gained that much on 26.5psi pump gas. I was only expecting a 10-15whp gain on low boost pump gas.
Last edited by Lowness; Dec 1, 2009 at 07:53 PM.
Dec 1, 2009, 08:22 PM
#6
That is correct it was only 200rpm slower. I did not change the MIVEC in this test, the tune was left IDENTICAL. I realistically can add some timing during spool and probably speed it up a little faster even.
Though Luke laughed at me a little, I want to try some new cams in this car as soon as Dan is able since I think we can grab some more. Possibly a bigger meth jet if nothing else since I have made more on a some Reds that were pushing nearly the same boost and mod path. I know on our customer Jim's car the S2s were worth 24whp over the M3s at the same boost level so I think it might be an avenue worth exploring for Dan as well.
Though Luke laughed at me a little, I want to try some new cams in this car as soon as Dan is able since I think we can grab some more. Possibly a bigger meth jet if nothing else since I have made more on a some Reds that were pushing nearly the same boost and mod path. I know on our customer Jim's car the S2s were worth 24whp over the M3s at the same boost level so I think it might be an avenue worth exploring for Dan as well.
Dec 1, 2009, 08:34 PM
#7
That is correct it was only 200rpm slower. I did not change the MIVEC in this test, the tune was left IDENTICAL. I realistically can add some timing during spool and probably speed it up a little faster even.
Though Luke laughed at me a little, I want to try some new cams in this car as soon as Dan is able since I think we can grab some more. Possibly a bigger meth jet if nothing else since I have made more on a some Reds that were pushing nearly the same boost and mod path. I know on our customer Jim's car the S2s were worth 24whp over the M3s at the same boost level so I think it might be an avenue worth exploring for Dan as well.
Though Luke laughed at me a little, I want to try some new cams in this car as soon as Dan is able since I think we can grab some more. Possibly a bigger meth jet if nothing else since I have made more on a some Reds that were pushing nearly the same boost and mod path. I know on our customer Jim's car the S2s were worth 24whp over the M3s at the same boost level so I think it might be an avenue worth exploring for Dan as well.
Trending Topics
Dec 1, 2009, 08:38 PM
#8
Evolved Member
iTrader: (18)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Albany NY
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wow nice comparison Aaron. so in this particular test on pump at 26.5 psi the black is good for another 30-40whp over a red correct?
also, not to thread jack but what do you think of the GSC s2's vs the FP4r's for a iX. if you don't want to post off-topic, please PM me if you don't mind.
also, not to thread jack but what do you think of the GSC s2's vs the FP4r's for a iX. if you don't want to post off-topic, please PM me if you don't mind.
Dec 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
#9
Evolved Member
iTrader: (14)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal :)
Posts: 2,636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow very impressive - the graphs look great tq curve and power.....any idea how your dyno compares to VDR ?
I am stuck with 91, so your first test was spot on for me
...THANKS!
I am stuck with 91, so your first test was spot on for me
...THANKS!
Dec 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
#10
I think the 4Rs are great cams as well. I have very limited experience with them and then it was on a stock turbo. I do know that they made great power at fairly low timing but I have never tried pushing a set to see what all I can get out of them because of fuel limitations.
In this test the Black with tuning to match the turbo (the Red was tuned as much as I could get at that boost level) was worth 46whp with .51 more boost in the initial test. I think tuned at 27 even its probably about 40whp. It was a legit 26-30 peak and more at various points in the powerband.
In this test the Black with tuning to match the turbo (the Red was tuned as much as I could get at that boost level) was worth 46whp with .51 more boost in the initial test. I think tuned at 27 even its probably about 40whp. It was a legit 26-30 peak and more at various points in the powerband.
Dec 1, 2009, 09:01 PM
#12
Evolved Member
iTrader: (14)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal :)
Posts: 2,636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Aaron ...I did not want to start a dyno war....I am just curious how an Evo equipped like this one would compare to a stock 911 Turbo (my guess is the Evo would be faster)....
Dec 1, 2009, 09:04 PM
#13
Account Disabled
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ft.Lauderdale Fl
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great comparison, betcha a lot of people wanted to see this done.
Now we can end all the "Red vs Black...stock block..on pump...at this boost level"..etc threads
Now we can end all the "Red vs Black...stock block..on pump...at this boost level"..etc threads
Dec 1, 2009, 09:16 PM
#15
Evolved Member
iTrader: (20)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gator Nation(UF)
Posts: 1,453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great test thanks for the work.
Not thread jacking but I've raced both a 996 and a 997.
996 - ran a 12.15
997 - ran a 11.67(not sure if it was stock though)
This car with the power its making now even on pump gas would beat both of them, no doubt.
EVO FTW
Not thread jacking but I've raced both a 996 and a 997.
996 - ran a 12.15
997 - ran a 11.67(not sure if it was stock though)
This car with the power its making now even on pump gas would beat both of them, no doubt.
EVO FTW
