evo 9 with BBK Full @ 30psi on 93oct
Jun 7, 2011, 11:00 AM
#46
You still can NOT run 100% WGDC all teh way to peak boost on a 3port. Sooner or later, and before peak boost, you have to run a lower WGDC (ie liek the 72-75% you said is needed with this turbo and most cars.) Doing that makes the 3port spool slower, compared to a MBC which doesn't let any air get to the wastegate until target boost
In layman's terms, the MBC holds 100% WGDC till peak boost, a 3port doesnt and cant.
Jun 7, 2011, 11:03 AM
#47
I've tested adjusting the wastegate arm before (if that's what you mean). I did a test where I tightened it half a turn, 1 full turn, and 2 full turns. The only thing it did was shift my boost spike to the right. It actually induced boost creep. Up to a point it was beneficial (I forget the setting..don't have the data with me). But too much, I didn't like it.
And yes, when adding more preload, your peak boost for the same MBC setting will be higher. But even after you lower back to the same target boost, you will hold more boost at top.
Yes, it will creep if you have added to much preload. You want to add preload so that it hold more/higher boost in the high RPMs, but does not creep.
Last edited by Boosted Tuning; Jun 7, 2011 at 11:25 AM.
Jun 7, 2011, 11:09 AM
#48
we run barely any preload on our turbos---
the 3 port setting is also affected by the amount of pressure against the WGA and that will affect the amount of duty cycle you need to run to keep it shut-
most MBC's are effectively a boost leak, meaning you are causing more harm than good- do a boost leak test with a hallman on- air will leak out of the valve
cb
the 3 port setting is also affected by the amount of pressure against the WGA and that will affect the amount of duty cycle you need to run to keep it shut-
most MBC's are effectively a boost leak, meaning you are causing more harm than good- do a boost leak test with a hallman on- air will leak out of the valve
cb
Jun 7, 2011, 11:24 AM
#49
we run barely any preload on our turbos---
the 3 port setting is also affected by the amount of pressure against the WGA and that will affect the amount of duty cycle you need to run to keep it shut-
most MBC's are effectively a boost leak, meaning you are causing more harm than good- do a boost leak test with a hallman on- air will leak out of the valve
cb
the 3 port setting is also affected by the amount of pressure against the WGA and that will affect the amount of duty cycle you need to run to keep it shut-
most MBC's are effectively a boost leak, meaning you are causing more harm than good- do a boost leak test with a hallman on- air will leak out of the valve
cb
Most ridiculous statment I've heard.
And BTW, try some preload on your WGAs. It will make the car spool faster and hold boost better and with less WGDC.
Jun 7, 2011, 11:24 AM
#50
we run barely any preload on our turbos---
the 3 port setting is also affected by the amount of pressure against the WGA and that will affect the amount of duty cycle you need to run to keep it shut-
most MBC's are effectively a boost leak, meaning you are causing more harm than good- do a boost leak test with a hallman on- air will leak out of the valve
cb
the 3 port setting is also affected by the amount of pressure against the WGA and that will affect the amount of duty cycle you need to run to keep it shut-
most MBC's are effectively a boost leak, meaning you are causing more harm than good- do a boost leak test with a hallman on- air will leak out of the valve
cb
Jun 7, 2011, 11:41 AM
#53
have you see what a boost leak does? for one thing, it makes a turbo work harder to make the same boost, meaning it can push it out of its efficient range- which then creates heat, which then creates knock- which then decreases performance-
anyway--
Tcomp- we can discuss this amongst ourselves without the bantering- even test it on our dyno-
cb
Jun 7, 2011, 11:59 AM
#54
Im not going to get into a childish argument-
have you see what a boost leak does? for one thing, it makes a turbo work harder to make the same boost, meaning it can push it out of its efficient range- which then creates heat, which then creates knock- which then decreases performance-
anyway--
Tcomp- we can discuss this amongst ourselves without the bantering- even test it on our dyno-
cb
have you see what a boost leak does? for one thing, it makes a turbo work harder to make the same boost, meaning it can push it out of its efficient range- which then creates heat, which then creates knock- which then decreases performance-
anyway--
Tcomp- we can discuss this amongst ourselves without the bantering- even test it on our dyno-
cb
You do know that a 3port bleeds off air JUST like a MBC, right? Does that make a 3port a "boost leak" too??
BTW I know all the negative impacts of a boost leak.
Jun 7, 2011, 12:24 PM
#55
ive got more then one customer that switched to different boost control and gained MASSIVE torque.. and backed it up on the dyno.. and that torque was not possible to find on the ecu boost.. its simply not happening.. im telling you theres a bug in the ecu boost.. we didnt just guess this.. i had my friend review the code for the ecu boost. The same person who designed the 3d sd maps recently.
i went to ecu boost and i lost so much torque downlow i stopped spinning 1st gear.. that is MASSIVE.. i went from RIPPING 1st gear apart to not being able to spin it anymore.. sure the car pulls hard uptop, but downlow its destroying the power curve.. the AFR was following the same trail.. so it sure as **** wasnt the tune. I would sell my car if i was stuck with that kind of response downlow.. its hard to explain, but the ecu boost has no kick downlow.. it is just there.. its smooth.. its a dull boy to say the least compared to a mbc where it kicks you back in the seat.
all this aside..
understand that a 3 port can kill your turbo quicker then anything else.. you can overspin the turbo EASY.. mbc is MUCH safer, it has a natural taper in boost which stops you from overspinning the turbo at higher rpm where its really dangerous.. i talked to major turbo manufacturers regarding this and they were all against the customer having full time WGDC throughout the rpm because its not necessary and its very inefficient when you run to much wgdc for the car and tune itself..
Beissens car made another 50wtq+ more also.. and this was proven on the Moore dynojet. and that torque was NO WHERE to be found on the ecu boost..
If anyones arguing the numbers.. ill have him drive to a dynojet and back it up.. i GUARANTEE if the air temps remain the same and the boost on the dyno is matched this car will put down these numbers or maybe higher on a real dynojet..
This programs known to read less torque then a real dynojet after all the changes in 1.1.0
better yet why dont you guys ask Chuck himself how the difference is vs the truboost vs 3 port? he sent me a msg on aol and said WTF? the car feels like a liter bike now! He was shocked when he felt the difference it made when he got the proper spring pressure in AEM and the boost curve.
and btw the car hits 34psi on the truboost and holds 33.8 up until 4600rpm.
I bet you TONS of $ that if we use the ecu boost and i even spike it to 35psi it wont create this torque.. im talking from direct experience here.. my car at 42psi spike only put out 540-550wtq when on hallman at 35psi it made 530.. now tell me is 7psi more boost only worth 30wtq on a fully built 2.3L? no.. and the reason the tq isnt there is because the boost signal is not solid on spoolup and anyone knows the sooner you spool a turbo the more torque you're going to produce.
i went to ecu boost and i lost so much torque downlow i stopped spinning 1st gear.. that is MASSIVE.. i went from RIPPING 1st gear apart to not being able to spin it anymore.. sure the car pulls hard uptop, but downlow its destroying the power curve.. the AFR was following the same trail.. so it sure as **** wasnt the tune. I would sell my car if i was stuck with that kind of response downlow.. its hard to explain, but the ecu boost has no kick downlow.. it is just there.. its smooth.. its a dull boy to say the least compared to a mbc where it kicks you back in the seat.
all this aside..
understand that a 3 port can kill your turbo quicker then anything else.. you can overspin the turbo EASY.. mbc is MUCH safer, it has a natural taper in boost which stops you from overspinning the turbo at higher rpm where its really dangerous.. i talked to major turbo manufacturers regarding this and they were all against the customer having full time WGDC throughout the rpm because its not necessary and its very inefficient when you run to much wgdc for the car and tune itself..
Beissens car made another 50wtq+ more also.. and this was proven on the Moore dynojet. and that torque was NO WHERE to be found on the ecu boost..
If anyones arguing the numbers.. ill have him drive to a dynojet and back it up.. i GUARANTEE if the air temps remain the same and the boost on the dyno is matched this car will put down these numbers or maybe higher on a real dynojet..
This programs known to read less torque then a real dynojet after all the changes in 1.1.0
better yet why dont you guys ask Chuck himself how the difference is vs the truboost vs 3 port? he sent me a msg on aol and said WTF? the car feels like a liter bike now! He was shocked when he felt the difference it made when he got the proper spring pressure in AEM and the boost curve.
and btw the car hits 34psi on the truboost and holds 33.8 up until 4600rpm.
I bet you TONS of $ that if we use the ecu boost and i even spike it to 35psi it wont create this torque.. im talking from direct experience here.. my car at 42psi spike only put out 540-550wtq when on hallman at 35psi it made 530.. now tell me is 7psi more boost only worth 30wtq on a fully built 2.3L? no.. and the reason the tq isnt there is because the boost signal is not solid on spoolup and anyone knows the sooner you spool a turbo the more torque you're going to produce.
Jun 7, 2011, 12:26 PM
#56
I'm working with Tom also and going grimmspeed to Hallman to test out what happens with each. My test was done on the exact same stretch of road at 94 degrees outside with peak boost set to match that of the grimspeed, both peak boost to 36.5. I'm sending Tom the logs to use the same info to plot them into the dyno program to see the results.
Jun 7, 2011, 12:33 PM
#57
so youre telling me you can make more PEAK whp and torque on a mbc than a 3 port with ecu boost?
we use 3 ports on EVERY single car now-a-days that comes through our doors- this and proper pressure testing has all but eliminated our turbo failures....
the argument you are making does not make sense on a 3 port killing the turbo with overspeed, if that is the case than you shouldnt run an upgraded actuator because that is working harder to hold the WG shut as is the PRELOADING of the actuator-
regardless- I can see this is going nowhere-
I will do some more testing here shortly on our dyno- to show the differences- and get some plots I have from testing done before.
Tom- are you running mainly tephra roms with your 3 port tuning and load or psi based boost? also- are you making sure you are running proper error correction?
Cheers
CB
we use 3 ports on EVERY single car now-a-days that comes through our doors- this and proper pressure testing has all but eliminated our turbo failures....
the argument you are making does not make sense on a 3 port killing the turbo with overspeed, if that is the case than you shouldnt run an upgraded actuator because that is working harder to hold the WG shut as is the PRELOADING of the actuator-
regardless- I can see this is going nowhere-
I will do some more testing here shortly on our dyno- to show the differences- and get some plots I have from testing done before.
Tom- are you running mainly tephra roms with your 3 port tuning and load or psi based boost? also- are you making sure you are running proper error correction?
Cheers
CB
Jun 7, 2011, 12:49 PM
#58
better yet why dont you guys ask Chuck himself how the difference is vs the truboost vs 3 port? he sent me a msg on aol and said WTF? the car feels like a liter bike now! He was shocked when he felt the difference it made when he got the proper spring pressure in AEM and the boost curve.
Bit more info..Every pull that Tom and I have done that has been used to increase power has been geolocated and environments have been captured. I wanted to make sure that we were consistant.
Jun 7, 2011, 01:09 PM
#60
i can blow up a turbo much quicker with something that can maintain a solid boost curve to redline then i can something that tapers off boost the higher RPM you go.. as you're tapering boost you are lowering the temps and the boost is actually more efficient.. try running your turbo 30psi across and measure the shaft speeds you see and additional heat you create vs a taper.. looking at a mbc as a boost leak is not the right way to look at it.
running this car 30psi across isnt even possible without extreme detonation and the proof is right there.. we dropped massive boost uptop and had no losses.. boost doesnt always equal more power.. and the reason is because 1. you can overspin the turbo easy high rpm, and 2. you create insane heat which leads to detonation and heatsoak and many other things.
in this situation the taper is NEEDED if you want the best of both worlds.. do you naturally want a massive tq spike? yes.. so what do you do? you want to create the quickest spoolup possible and run the highest amount of boost possible to get that tq.. but then lies the problem of detonation since you're limited to low octane fuel.. so what happens? do we continue the boost curve flat or do we drop it off? we drop it off.. if you dont drop it off you create detonation.. just because a boost curve is not being controlled and is tapering down doesn't mean its a boost leak.. its boost control.. controlled boost is not a boost leak.. a boost leak is something that is an actual leak in the system.. the reason hallmans and other mbc's have a tiny bleed hole is to better assist boost control with the system.. you cant have a boost leak if its within the boost controller itselfs built functionality.. its part of how the controller operates.
bottom line is.. i can give someone a mbc and ecu boost.. they can blow their turbo 10x quicker with ecu boost then they can with a mbc.. try to run 100% WGDC at redline on any turbo and it will not last long.. it spins the turbo so hard its no different then running with the line off the wastegate pretty much. the only thing saving you from blowing the turbo is when the flapper blows open.
so all in all.. a 3 port is actually to good at some points for the users own good.. the only reason its bad right now downlow is becuase theres a bug in the code written on the ecu that sends the signal looping back and forth causing the flapper to bleed exhaust gases as you're trying to use those gases to spin the turbo.. no different then an exhaust manifold leak before the turbine housing.
I had no idea it was like this until i tested it on my own car.. and i wont ever recommend it again to anyone until this issue is resolved. it doesnt seem as bad on certain setups, but its certainly there.
I dont know if this is specifically V7 related or not.. it very well could be.
running this car 30psi across isnt even possible without extreme detonation and the proof is right there.. we dropped massive boost uptop and had no losses.. boost doesnt always equal more power.. and the reason is because 1. you can overspin the turbo easy high rpm, and 2. you create insane heat which leads to detonation and heatsoak and many other things.
in this situation the taper is NEEDED if you want the best of both worlds.. do you naturally want a massive tq spike? yes.. so what do you do? you want to create the quickest spoolup possible and run the highest amount of boost possible to get that tq.. but then lies the problem of detonation since you're limited to low octane fuel.. so what happens? do we continue the boost curve flat or do we drop it off? we drop it off.. if you dont drop it off you create detonation.. just because a boost curve is not being controlled and is tapering down doesn't mean its a boost leak.. its boost control.. controlled boost is not a boost leak.. a boost leak is something that is an actual leak in the system.. the reason hallmans and other mbc's have a tiny bleed hole is to better assist boost control with the system.. you cant have a boost leak if its within the boost controller itselfs built functionality.. its part of how the controller operates.
bottom line is.. i can give someone a mbc and ecu boost.. they can blow their turbo 10x quicker with ecu boost then they can with a mbc.. try to run 100% WGDC at redline on any turbo and it will not last long.. it spins the turbo so hard its no different then running with the line off the wastegate pretty much. the only thing saving you from blowing the turbo is when the flapper blows open.
so all in all.. a 3 port is actually to good at some points for the users own good.. the only reason its bad right now downlow is becuase theres a bug in the code written on the ecu that sends the signal looping back and forth causing the flapper to bleed exhaust gases as you're trying to use those gases to spin the turbo.. no different then an exhaust manifold leak before the turbine housing.
I had no idea it was like this until i tested it on my own car.. and i wont ever recommend it again to anyone until this issue is resolved. it doesnt seem as bad on certain setups, but its certainly there.
I dont know if this is specifically V7 related or not.. it very well could be.