Weird problem with Forge MBC
Thanks Warrtalon for the explanation, I was like WTF.
Another question on this subject, what's the difference of having a ceramic ball against a steel ball on the MBC? Hallmans use ceramic *****, is that better?
Another question on this subject, what's the difference of having a ceramic ball against a steel ball on the MBC? Hallmans use ceramic *****, is that better?
So far so good for me. It sucks that this thread is continuing though. Guess i'll have to keep watching my gauge for any kind of crazy behavior? As it sits right now, when i mash the throttle, the needle shoots up to about 23ish and drops to 21 all the way to red line. Just as it did after i cleaned and greased it. And just like JuancaROD, i'm wondering what a ceramic ball would do for this UNOS? Might be worth checking out.
This is weird. What boost level was the stiff spring designed for mike?
Last week I installed my forge unos with soft spring and it was actually boosting less than stock (just under 19psi ripping through the gears and on a 4th gear roll on spiked about 20.5psi. vs. a 22.5 spike to 16.5 at redline stock)
Although most of the tapering is gone, I wanted more boost so I switched to the heavy spring after the unos had about an hour or two of use on my car and went for a drive with the BC setting all the way down. On 3rd and fourth gear rollons with less than 75% throttle I was resting above 24.5 psi where I would quickly let off, I never got to test if it would settle down to 21. I just figured the heavy spring was for 25+ psi which seemed silly to me.
What was the heavy spring designed for?
Time to rip the BC apart and figure out WTF is going on..........
Last week I installed my forge unos with soft spring and it was actually boosting less than stock (just under 19psi ripping through the gears and on a 4th gear roll on spiked about 20.5psi. vs. a 22.5 spike to 16.5 at redline stock)
Although most of the tapering is gone, I wanted more boost so I switched to the heavy spring after the unos had about an hour or two of use on my car and went for a drive with the BC setting all the way down. On 3rd and fourth gear rollons with less than 75% throttle I was resting above 24.5 psi where I would quickly let off, I never got to test if it would settle down to 21. I just figured the heavy spring was for 25+ psi which seemed silly to me.
What was the heavy spring designed for?
Time to rip the BC apart and figure out WTF is going on..........
Ok.... here we go.
(ALL of the figures I am providing below are accounting for the use of the OEM wastegate actuator with a base spring pressure of about 12 PSI)
The softer unos spring is good for about a maximum of 10 PSI in increase over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 21-22 PSI).
The stiffer spring is good for about 12 PSI to 20 PSI over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 32 PSI). Some may reach slightly higher and some may be slightly lower.
Now, we have determined that the spiking issue when using the stiffer spring is due to a couple different factors:
1. Colder weather
2. An internal issue with the ball and spring mechanism that is sporadic as not everyone is experiencing the problem.
Colder weather will always result boost spikes when the boost controller reference is taken from the turbo outlet nipple. No one seems to be mentioning the ambient air temperature when these spikes are occuring as this will always relate directly to how the car boosts.
iThe spikes are less of an issue when the boost controller reference is taken from the intake manifold, but other issues will result from taking the reference from that location. If the car is aloud to warm up properly the spiking should not be too much of a concern and should go away if that is the only cause for the spiking in any given instance.
I have not yet been able to replicate the issue with the ball and spring mechanism "sticking" to require that grease be added to the unit to eliminate the problem, but as walkedu has mentioned, he has been able to eliminate the issue on his car by adding a small amount of grease to the unit. This is not going to create any problems and should work fine to help resolve the issue until I am able to figure out the exact nature of the problem myself.
I am looking into the problem as quickly as time will allow, but it might be a good idea to try to add a small amount of grease to the units for the time being.
(ALL of the figures I am providing below are accounting for the use of the OEM wastegate actuator with a base spring pressure of about 12 PSI)
The softer unos spring is good for about a maximum of 10 PSI in increase over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 21-22 PSI).
The stiffer spring is good for about 12 PSI to 20 PSI over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 32 PSI). Some may reach slightly higher and some may be slightly lower.
Now, we have determined that the spiking issue when using the stiffer spring is due to a couple different factors:
1. Colder weather
2. An internal issue with the ball and spring mechanism that is sporadic as not everyone is experiencing the problem.
Colder weather will always result boost spikes when the boost controller reference is taken from the turbo outlet nipple. No one seems to be mentioning the ambient air temperature when these spikes are occuring as this will always relate directly to how the car boosts.
iThe spikes are less of an issue when the boost controller reference is taken from the intake manifold, but other issues will result from taking the reference from that location. If the car is aloud to warm up properly the spiking should not be too much of a concern and should go away if that is the only cause for the spiking in any given instance.
I have not yet been able to replicate the issue with the ball and spring mechanism "sticking" to require that grease be added to the unit to eliminate the problem, but as walkedu has mentioned, he has been able to eliminate the issue on his car by adding a small amount of grease to the unit. This is not going to create any problems and should work fine to help resolve the issue until I am able to figure out the exact nature of the problem myself.
I am looking into the problem as quickly as time will allow, but it might be a good idea to try to add a small amount of grease to the units for the time being.
Last edited by Mike@Forge; Jan 16, 2006 at 09:21 AM.
Originally Posted by Mike@Forge
Ok.... here we go.
(ALL of the figures I am providing below are accounting for the use of the OEM wastegate actuator with a base spring pressure of about 12 PSI)
The softer unos spring is good for about a maximum of 10 PSI in increase over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 21-22 PSI).
The stiffer spring is good for about 12 PSI to 20 PSI over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 32 PSI). Some may reach slightly higher and some may be slightly lower.
Now, we have determined that the spiking issue when using the stiffer spring is due to a couple different factors:
1. Colder weather
2. An internal issue with the ball and spring mechanism that is sporadic as not everyone is experiencing the problem.
Colder weather will always result boost spikes when the boost controller reference is taken from the turbo outlet nipple. No one seems to be mentioning the ambient air temperature when these spikes are occuring as this will always relate directly to how the car boosts.
iThe spikes are less of an issue when the boost controller reference is taken from the intake manifold, but other issues will result from taking the reference from that location. If the car is aloud to warm up properly the spiking should not be too much of a concern and should go away if that is the only cause for the spiking in any given instance.
I have not yet been able to replicate the issue with the ball and spring mechanism "sticking" to require that grease be added to the unit to eliminate the problem, but as walkedu has mentioned, he has been able to eliminate the issue on his car by adding a small amount of grease to the unit. This is not going to create any problems and should work fine to help resolve the issue until I am able to figure out the exact nature of the problem myself.
I am looking into the problem as quickly as time will allow, but it might be a good idea to try to add a small amount of grease to the units for the time being.
(ALL of the figures I am providing below are accounting for the use of the OEM wastegate actuator with a base spring pressure of about 12 PSI)
The softer unos spring is good for about a maximum of 10 PSI in increase over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 21-22 PSI).
The stiffer spring is good for about 12 PSI to 20 PSI over the OEM actuator's base spring pressure (up to about 32 PSI). Some may reach slightly higher and some may be slightly lower.
Now, we have determined that the spiking issue when using the stiffer spring is due to a couple different factors:
1. Colder weather
2. An internal issue with the ball and spring mechanism that is sporadic as not everyone is experiencing the problem.
Colder weather will always result boost spikes when the boost controller reference is taken from the turbo outlet nipple. No one seems to be mentioning the ambient air temperature when these spikes are occuring as this will always relate directly to how the car boosts.
iThe spikes are less of an issue when the boost controller reference is taken from the intake manifold, but other issues will result from taking the reference from that location. If the car is aloud to warm up properly the spiking should not be too much of a concern and should go away if that is the only cause for the spiking in any given instance.
I have not yet been able to replicate the issue with the ball and spring mechanism "sticking" to require that grease be added to the unit to eliminate the problem, but as walkedu has mentioned, he has been able to eliminate the issue on his car by adding a small amount of grease to the unit. This is not going to create any problems and should work fine to help resolve the issue until I am able to figure out the exact nature of the problem myself.
I am looking into the problem as quickly as time will allow, but it might be a good idea to try to add a small amount of grease to the units for the time being.
Mike - I have sold many many of these units and I have not seen this problem one time
It may be prudent to pre-lube the ***** to be extra cautious
What kind of lube should I use ?
Thanks for such a great product - I love the UNOS
All of our other products that require lubrication (valves, etc) are assembled in the UK using Mobil1 fully synthetic bearing grease which is red in color. any equivalent is sufficient, however.
We do not recommend the use of lithium grease on those components as it is corrosive to the o-rings inside the valves, but given that the UNOS doesn't have any o-rings, it MIGHT be ok to use lithium grease if access to a fully synthetic bearing grease is limited, but I would personally never use anything other than a fully synthetic bearing grease.
We do not recommend the use of lithium grease on those components as it is corrosive to the o-rings inside the valves, but given that the UNOS doesn't have any o-rings, it MIGHT be ok to use lithium grease if access to a fully synthetic bearing grease is limited, but I would personally never use anything other than a fully synthetic bearing grease.
Originally Posted by Mike@Forge
All of our other products that require lubrication (valves, etc) are assembled in the UK using Mobil1 fully synthetic bearing grease which is red in color. any equivalent is sufficient, however.
We do not recommend the use of lithium grease on those components as it is corrosive to the o-rings inside the valves, but given that the UNOS doesn't have any o-rings, it MIGHT be ok to use lithium grease if access to a fully synthetic bearing grease is limited, but I would personally never use anything other than a fully synthetic bearing grease.
We do not recommend the use of lithium grease on those components as it is corrosive to the o-rings inside the valves, but given that the UNOS doesn't have any o-rings, it MIGHT be ok to use lithium grease if access to a fully synthetic bearing grease is limited, but I would personally never use anything other than a fully synthetic bearing grease.
This is exactly what i'm using. Cost me 6 bucks for more than i could ever use in a life time (asuming i only used it for the MBC). If anyone is having troubles finding this product, send me a PM with your address and i'll send you some for free. So far, it's been working great.
FYI, the outside temp in my location has been between -15 to about 40 degrees (T-Shirt weather!) in the last 2 weeks. Did quite a few pulls last night trying to tune for race gas (Aiming for a solid 22psi(23psi to about 21.5 by 7800RPM)) and didn't have one problem with the spiking issue that i had before the grease. IMO, the temp has little/nothing to do with this spiking issue. Besides that, with the location i have my UNOS, it's more likely to be HEAT related than cold related. I've tried turning up the boost witht he engine being hot and the UNOS was almost too hot to touch.
Last edited by walkedu; Jan 16, 2006 at 10:00 AM.
Originally Posted by Mike@Forge
Ok.... here we go.
Now, we have determined that the spiking issue when using the stiffer spring is due to a couple different factors:
1. Colder weather
2. An internal issue with the ball and spring mechanism that is sporadic as not everyone is experiencing the problem.
Colder weather will always result boost spikes when the boost controller reference is taken from the turbo outlet nipple. No one seems to be mentioning the ambient air temperature when these spikes are occuring as this will always relate directly to how the car boosts.
I am looking into the problem as quickly as time will allow, but it might be a good idea to try to add a small amount of grease to the units for the time being.
Now, we have determined that the spiking issue when using the stiffer spring is due to a couple different factors:
1. Colder weather
2. An internal issue with the ball and spring mechanism that is sporadic as not everyone is experiencing the problem.
Colder weather will always result boost spikes when the boost controller reference is taken from the turbo outlet nipple. No one seems to be mentioning the ambient air temperature when these spikes are occuring as this will always relate directly to how the car boosts.
I am looking into the problem as quickly as time will allow, but it might be a good idea to try to add a small amount of grease to the units for the time being.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
It may be prudent to pre-lube the ***** to be extra cautious
What kind of lube should I use ?
What kind of lube should I use ?
my .02
Most forge products that i have owned all are made w/ precision, and have to be lubed correctly, like the older DV's on the VW's... i cleaned and lubed after each oil change (a little excessive, yes) and never had any issues. If you didn't, you had similar issues.
Last edited by akEvo; Jan 16, 2006 at 10:41 AM.
What ever lube they suggest I am going to install it when I ship the MBCs' out - I already take them apart and pre-install the stiff spring
Thne ***** are fairly dry from the factory
Thne ***** are fairly dry from the factory
This is definitely not weather-related as this has happened to me at 80F as well as 50F. It didn't happen using the soft spring, however I could only boost up to 19 PSI with that spring.
I used full synthetic bearing grease to lube the ball and solved somehow the problem, but I still experience spikes once in a while.
I don't know if you remember Al, but after you flashed my car at West Palm Beach (first car on Saturday, silver Evo VIII) and went for a test drive, you had a pretty high spike (around 25 PSI) and you thought that I had set the MBC too high, that was actually the problem we're describing here. On the following runs there were no spikes, it was 21 PSI sustained. You can see that these spikes happen anytime, and the scarier part is that they can happen even at 50% throttle.
I used full synthetic bearing grease to lube the ball and solved somehow the problem, but I still experience spikes once in a while.
I don't know if you remember Al, but after you flashed my car at West Palm Beach (first car on Saturday, silver Evo VIII) and went for a test drive, you had a pretty high spike (around 25 PSI) and you thought that I had set the MBC too high, that was actually the problem we're describing here. On the following runs there were no spikes, it was 21 PSI sustained. You can see that these spikes happen anytime, and the scarier part is that they can happen even at 50% throttle.
I find it very hard to believe that the spikes mentioned in this thread have anything to do with the weather. I could understand a 2-3 spike initially from a drop in the temp & humidity, but not a 6-9 psi spike! And not with 3 different people who happened to purchase their MBC's within a very close time frame. Sounds like it "could" be a defective batch if this has never happened before. Incedently, I spoke with 2 different people who've used the Hallman for over a year with zero issues related to spiking. I purchesed this MBC based on Al's recommendation, I will attempt to remedy said problem via clean & lube, but after that, if there's a problem, it's gone! I don't have time to waste checking a NIB device to make sure it's not defective!