carbonetics carbon twin plate failure + pics
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Joined: Mar 2005
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I doubt Tilton would ever say that carbon clutch are not good for road racing. Tilton developed and patented the first carbon clutch in 1987, and was the first carbon clutch to be used in and win a F1 race. Today, every F1 car uses a carbon clutch. Tilton supplies the 4.5" 4-plate carbon for Champ Car (new Panoz DP07 chassis). They supply 5.5" 3-plate carbon clutches to Porsche Motorsports for the 996/997 GT3 RSR cars, and they supplied the 7.25" 3-plate carbon clutch to Chyrsler for all the Viper GTS-R racecars (the ones that won Le Mans many times). Based on this history, I would say they make excellent road racing clutches.
That said, you cannot compare a Tilton carbon clutch to Carbonetics. They are quite different clutches. Tilton uses carbon against carbon interface, while Carbonetics uses carbon against steel interface. Carbon against carbon is far more reliable, but the costs are quite a bit higher because twice the amount of carbon is used.
Also, Tilton dyno tests every carbon clutch to 50% over their rated torque capacity before shipping to customers. This test is done on a low speed dyno that puts very little heat into the carbon plates.
The one problem with carbon clutches on the street is the wear rate. It varies highly, depending on the driver. Since the carbon is smooth engaging and does not warp from heat, many drivers tend to slip the clutch more. Every time you slip a clutch, carbon is worn from the plates. EVO drivers tend to slip the clutch the most... to get the great launches. Also, EVOs tend to be one of the hardest applications on clutches, especially when driven aggresively.
That said, you cannot compare a Tilton carbon clutch to Carbonetics. They are quite different clutches. Tilton uses carbon against carbon interface, while Carbonetics uses carbon against steel interface. Carbon against carbon is far more reliable, but the costs are quite a bit higher because twice the amount of carbon is used.
Also, Tilton dyno tests every carbon clutch to 50% over their rated torque capacity before shipping to customers. This test is done on a low speed dyno that puts very little heat into the carbon plates.
The one problem with carbon clutches on the street is the wear rate. It varies highly, depending on the driver. Since the carbon is smooth engaging and does not warp from heat, many drivers tend to slip the clutch more. Every time you slip a clutch, carbon is worn from the plates. EVO drivers tend to slip the clutch the most... to get the great launches. Also, EVOs tend to be one of the hardest applications on clutches, especially when driven aggresively.
There is no such thing as a carbon clutch that is good for road racing or street driving at ANY hp level. At least not according to Exedy, Tilton, OS Giken, or David Buschur, all of whom I spoke to recently. As soon as they cool, they start to slip. And apparently the carbon is so good at dissipating heat that they will cool down on just about any long straightaway (and certainly on any highway) and the next time you need it to hold, it wont.
Carbon clutches = drag racing ... and that's about it.
Note where he says "just have to get a little heat in it" ... that's the problem with Carbon clutches on the street or a road course with a few long straights (like Sebring).
Carbon clutches = drag racing ... and that's about it.
Note where he says "just have to get a little heat in it" ... that's the problem with Carbon clutches on the street or a road course with a few long straights (like Sebring).
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Joined: Mar 2005
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The Carrera GT clutch is actually a carbon/ceramic composite clutch. Technology used in the clutch is actually licensed to Porsche by Tilton.
Funny you should mention the Carrera GT, it is built almost entirely out of carbon fiber, yet it DOESN'T use a carbon clutch:
"The GT's 5.7-liter, 605-horsepower V-10 engine is based on a Le Mans prototype design, and said engine sends power to the rear wheels through an industry-first small-diameter 6.65-inch twin-disc ceramic clutch." That is from PopularScience, the quote is a link to the article.
And the reason the Exedy triple drives like a dream in a car with a built motor and GT-35r is probably because it's slipping! I didn't say it won't hold at all, but it WILL slip, at least until it slips enough to get hot, then it will grab, hence the smooth engagement. The reason DEVO330's car woks is because he has a 650hp clutch on a "330-400hp car" so I stand corrected, if you use a carbon clutch that has about twice the capacity of what you need, it will probably work well enough to make some people happy.Kind of like a 900hp Exedy Triple on a 550hp GT-35 car.
"The GT's 5.7-liter, 605-horsepower V-10 engine is based on a Le Mans prototype design, and said engine sends power to the rear wheels through an industry-first small-diameter 6.65-inch twin-disc ceramic clutch." That is from PopularScience, the quote is a link to the article.
And the reason the Exedy triple drives like a dream in a car with a built motor and GT-35r is probably because it's slipping! I didn't say it won't hold at all, but it WILL slip, at least until it slips enough to get hot, then it will grab, hence the smooth engagement. The reason DEVO330's car woks is because he has a 650hp clutch on a "330-400hp car" so I stand corrected, if you use a carbon clutch that has about twice the capacity of what you need, it will probably work well enough to make some people happy.Kind of like a 900hp Exedy Triple on a 550hp GT-35 car.
There is no such thing as a carbon clutch that is good for road racing or street driving at ANY hp level. At least not according to Exedy, Tilton, OS Giken, or David Buschur, all of whom I spoke to recently. As soon as they cool, they start to slip. And apparently the carbon is so good at dissipating heat that they will cool down on just about any long straightaway (and certainly on any highway) and the next time you need it to hold, it wont.
Carbon clutches = drag racing ... and that's about it.
Note where he says "just have to get a little heat in it" ... that's the problem with Carbon clutches on the street or a road course with a few long straights (like Sebring).
Carbon clutches = drag racing ... and that's about it.
Note where he says "just have to get a little heat in it" ... that's the problem with Carbon clutches on the street or a road course with a few long straights (like Sebring).
EXACTLY what i was just going to post. Some jerkoffs told me the HD carbon exedy twin would be fine in my 380whp daily driver. Yea ok, it lasted 2800 miles with moderate abuse. I broke it in for 500 miles just driving normal and after that everytime I drove the car I had to heat it up and if i drove for 5 mins normal, it cooled down and had to be slipped again to heat up. i wore it out in 3 weeks like that going to school/work every day. maybe for a track car that heats it up and then does a pass and does that 3-5 times a day for a season or 2 is fine. once it heated up it grabbed great, but heating it 10 times a day so i can floor the car in 4th and 5th gear is ridiculous
Last edited by Steve@NoLimitmotors; Feb 21, 2007 at 09:38 AM.
I have been informed by a reputable source that this arrangement, while less expensive, is potentially more problematic than the carbon-carbon setup.
I am still unconvinced that carbon clutches in general are best suited for street applications, purely due to my suspicions regarding longevity. I want to like the idea of using them, but I keep seeing sad stories like this. Given the sheer amount of money involved, it raises real concerns.
And where money is considered, I am trying to look at it this way . . .
A clutch that costs twice as much should last twice as long. If it doesn't, then I'm not sure I see the point of using it outside of a pure race application.
Just my thoughts, FWIW.
I am still unconvinced that carbon clutches in general are best suited for street applications, purely due to my suspicions regarding longevity. I want to like the idea of using them, but I keep seeing sad stories like this. Given the sheer amount of money involved, it raises real concerns.
And where money is considered, I am trying to look at it this way . . .
A clutch that costs twice as much should last twice as long. If it doesn't, then I'm not sure I see the point of using it outside of a pure race application.
Just my thoughts, FWIW.
i get 18-20k miles out of my cusco twin carbon clutch and i have probably alil over 420whp. i feel it slip alittle when im fist leaving my driveway but after that its gravy. Also i speak from experiance, ive rebuilt the cusco twice already -=)
I doubt Tilton would ever say that carbon clutch are not good for road racing. Tilton developed and patented the first carbon clutch in 1987, and was the first carbon clutch to be used in and win a F1 race. Today, every F1 car uses a carbon clutch. Tilton supplies the 4.5" 4-plate carbon for Champ Car (new Panoz DP07 chassis). They supply 5.5" 3-plate carbon clutches to Porsche Motorsports for the 996/997 GT3 RSR cars, and they supplied the 7.25" 3-plate carbon clutch to Chyrsler for all the Viper GTS-R racecars (the ones that won Le Mans many times). Based on this history, I would say they make excellent road racing clutches.
That said, you cannot compare a Tilton carbon clutch to Carbonetics. They are quite different clutches. Tilton uses carbon against carbon interface, while Carbonetics uses carbon against steel interface. Carbon against carbon is far more reliable, but the costs are quite a bit higher because twice the amount of carbon is used.
Also, Tilton dyno tests every carbon clutch to 50% over their rated torque capacity before shipping to customers. This test is done on a low speed dyno that puts very little heat into the carbon plates.
The one problem with carbon clutches on the street is the wear rate. It varies highly, depending on the driver. Since the carbon is smooth engaging and does not warp from heat, many drivers tend to slip the clutch more. Every time you slip a clutch, carbon is worn from the plates. EVO drivers tend to slip the clutch the most... to get the great launches. Also, EVOs tend to be one of the hardest applications on clutches, especially when driven aggresively.
That said, you cannot compare a Tilton carbon clutch to Carbonetics. They are quite different clutches. Tilton uses carbon against carbon interface, while Carbonetics uses carbon against steel interface. Carbon against carbon is far more reliable, but the costs are quite a bit higher because twice the amount of carbon is used.
Also, Tilton dyno tests every carbon clutch to 50% over their rated torque capacity before shipping to customers. This test is done on a low speed dyno that puts very little heat into the carbon plates.
The one problem with carbon clutches on the street is the wear rate. It varies highly, depending on the driver. Since the carbon is smooth engaging and does not warp from heat, many drivers tend to slip the clutch more. Every time you slip a clutch, carbon is worn from the plates. EVO drivers tend to slip the clutch the most... to get the great launches. Also, EVOs tend to be one of the hardest applications on clutches, especially when driven aggresively.
I may soon be in the market for a clutch... I was looking into a carbon ExcedY... I may think again. I have a Act in now and I love it. Simple clutch, I changed the disk once only because the tranny was being rebuilt by the dealer. I need a clutch I can drive every day and take to the track ocassionally. ACTman.. 03EVO583, I love to here people that know their $hit talk!!
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 10
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From: Netherlands
I know this is an old topic, but I found it as I have a similair problem:
After pulling away in 1st gear, first releasing the clutchpedal(get the car rolling) and then full throttle, I hear a loud bang. After this the car wouldn't change gear anymore.
Was able to get home in the 1st gear I was in, luckily only 1 mile from my house. Pressing the clutch while accelerating did not make the revs shoot up, so it did not disengage.
Inspecting the clutch through the peekhole in the gearbox, everything looks to be in place and the mechanisms still works. (cilinders/fork/releasebearing/pressureplate "fingers" etc all move).
It just does not release. So I think the pressureplate fingers have broken at the pivotpoint and thus not pulling the pressureplate of the clutch.... Or something inside the clutch broke?
Anyone else with a similair experience?
After pulling away in 1st gear, first releasing the clutchpedal(get the car rolling) and then full throttle, I hear a loud bang. After this the car wouldn't change gear anymore.
Was able to get home in the 1st gear I was in, luckily only 1 mile from my house. Pressing the clutch while accelerating did not make the revs shoot up, so it did not disengage.
Inspecting the clutch through the peekhole in the gearbox, everything looks to be in place and the mechanisms still works. (cilinders/fork/releasebearing/pressureplate "fingers" etc all move).
It just does not release. So I think the pressureplate fingers have broken at the pivotpoint and thus not pulling the pressureplate of the clutch.... Or something inside the clutch broke?
Anyone else with a similair experience?
just like 1st post I had a triple in here last year that cracked a mid plate. would not shift. replaced just the one mid plate and clutch was back to like new. when a mid plate cracks it does not release.
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