New FP White turbo
I emailed FP and Aniel answered that the White would only be available in one configuration. Take it or leave it. Apparently there will be no TiAl exhaust wheel available on the White.
Heres some early 'butt dyno' results. David and I worked on the car Thursday evening and Friday afternoon. I had to remove the turbo, exhaust manifold, downpipe, oil lines, etc. All because I forgot to put the rpm sensor on the turbo housing. I have two complete setups ready to test and had the sensor in the other one. Back to the results. We fired the car for the first time Thursday and David did a very initial tune on the new AEM. Today, after getting the sensor installed (but not hooked up), we took it on the road so DB could begin the tune. Going North out of Wakeman, I could tell immediately that the new combination was going to show very strong midrange. It just want's to go. Ever drive a car that was difficult to hold back? This is that car. We made the run to my hotel then back to Wakeman, total of 20 miles. I then drove it to Davids house and going through a few twisties, I imagined my self on a road coarse and response in the 3000 rpm range is very good. Now, on to the wot test runs with VwJeff holding the laptop.
David wanted us to take the car to a local closed circuit and give it a wot from 2500 - 7000 rpm. We took off. First wot was from about 4000 - 7000 or so. Response again was IMMEDIATE and pull on the top was incredible. Again, 3200 or so to what I thought was 7000, again immediate response and STRONG midrange pull. We turned around and I had the car in 2nd gear, 2500 rpms and nailed it. It pulled strong to about 3200 or so, then the Quick Time Pros running about 14 psi, all 4 broke loose and the car did a torque steer slide. Very impressive. Jeff made the comment that it's power was IMMEDIATE and Strong. No lag at all. He also told me that I had just hit 8300 and the car was still pulling. I don't know boost, or anything else at this point. I did my job, 3 times over for David and the logs. Now, tomorrow we'll try to get a few dyno pulls. By the way, those strong pulls were at 10.5 AFR. Admittedly, the car and build are about as strong as an engine is going to be, but the turbo is extremely impressive and quick to respond. Is it stronger than the Green? I don't know, but breaking 4 Quick Time Pros loose at 3500 or so is enough to convince me that this turbo is going to be awfully strong. More to come.
David wanted us to take the car to a local closed circuit and give it a wot from 2500 - 7000 rpm. We took off. First wot was from about 4000 - 7000 or so. Response again was IMMEDIATE and pull on the top was incredible. Again, 3200 or so to what I thought was 7000, again immediate response and STRONG midrange pull. We turned around and I had the car in 2nd gear, 2500 rpms and nailed it. It pulled strong to about 3200 or so, then the Quick Time Pros running about 14 psi, all 4 broke loose and the car did a torque steer slide. Very impressive. Jeff made the comment that it's power was IMMEDIATE and Strong. No lag at all. He also told me that I had just hit 8300 and the car was still pulling. I don't know boost, or anything else at this point. I did my job, 3 times over for David and the logs. Now, tomorrow we'll try to get a few dyno pulls. By the way, those strong pulls were at 10.5 AFR. Admittedly, the car and build are about as strong as an engine is going to be, but the turbo is extremely impressive and quick to respond. Is it stronger than the Green? I don't know, but breaking 4 Quick Time Pros loose at 3500 or so is enough to convince me that this turbo is going to be awfully strong. More to come.
Heres some early 'butt dyno' results. David and I worked on the car Thursday evening and Friday afternoon. I had to remove the turbo, exhaust manifold, downpipe, oil lines, etc. All because I forgot to put the rpm sensor on the turbo housing. I have two complete setups ready to test and had the sensor in the other one. Back to the results. We fired the car for the first time Thursday and David did a very initial tune on the new AEM. Today, after getting the sensor installed (but not hooked up), we took it on the road so DB could begin the tune. Going North out of Wakeman, I could tell immediately that the new combination was going to show very strong midrange. It just want's to go. Ever drive a car that was difficult to hold back? This is that car. We made the run to my hotel then back to Wakeman, total of 20 miles. I then drove it to Davids house and going through a few twisties, I imagined my self on a road coarse and response in the 3000 rpm range is very good. Now, on to the wot test runs with VwJeff holding the laptop.
David wanted us to take the car to a local closed circuit and give it a wot from 2500 - 7000 rpm. We took off. First wot was from about 4000 - 7000 or so. Response again was IMMEDIATE and pull on the top was incredible. Again, 3200 or so to what I thought was 7000, again immediate response and STRONG midrange pull. We turned around and I had the car in 2nd gear, 2500 rpms and nailed it. It pulled strong to about 3200 or so, then the Quick Time Pros running about 14 psi, all 4 broke loose and the car did a torque steer slide. Very impressive. Jeff made the comment that it's power was IMMEDIATE and Strong. No lag at all. He also told me that I had just hit 8300 and the car was still pulling. I don't know boost, or anything else at this point. I did my job, 3 times over for David and the logs. Now, tomorrow we'll try to get a few dyno pulls. By the way, those strong pulls were at 10.5 AFR. Admittedly, the car and build are about as strong as an engine is going to be, but the turbo is extremely impressive and quick to respond. Is it stronger than the Green? I don't know, but breaking 4 Quick Time Pros loose at 3500 or so is enough to convince me that this turbo is going to be awfully strong. More to come.
David wanted us to take the car to a local closed circuit and give it a wot from 2500 - 7000 rpm. We took off. First wot was from about 4000 - 7000 or so. Response again was IMMEDIATE and pull on the top was incredible. Again, 3200 or so to what I thought was 7000, again immediate response and STRONG midrange pull. We turned around and I had the car in 2nd gear, 2500 rpms and nailed it. It pulled strong to about 3200 or so, then the Quick Time Pros running about 14 psi, all 4 broke loose and the car did a torque steer slide. Very impressive. Jeff made the comment that it's power was IMMEDIATE and Strong. No lag at all. He also told me that I had just hit 8300 and the car was still pulling. I don't know boost, or anything else at this point. I did my job, 3 times over for David and the logs. Now, tomorrow we'll try to get a few dyno pulls. By the way, those strong pulls were at 10.5 AFR. Admittedly, the car and build are about as strong as an engine is going to be, but the turbo is extremely impressive and quick to respond. Is it stronger than the Green? I don't know, but breaking 4 Quick Time Pros loose at 3500 or so is enough to convince me that this turbo is going to be awfully strong. More to come.
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 491
Likes: 1
From: Redmond Washington
I'm interested in internal wastegate performance, since a lot of the aftermarket ones work rotten. But looking at this one it works great. Right? I see no blow-open and no creep in 3rd and 4th gear. The PR, intake man pressure, and compressor outlet pressure all hold steady once they settle down from the shift. Ok, in 1st and 2nd gear the boost drops slightly as the revs increase, which would bring to mind blow-open, but I don't really see blow open there in the WG position chart. Well wait, it almost looks like the WG is never quite fully closed in 1st gear. Fully closed looks like it would be about 2.8 volts. So I wonder about that.
I see that the fearless GrocMax has wound it out to 50 mph in 1st gear, then apparently chickening out only picks up another 15 mph in 2nd gear. Is this a close-ratio gear box with a tall 1st gear or something?
I see the WOT shifts, which are accomplished by ignition cut. During the cut the exhaust mani pressure drops some but not a whole lot, which I guess is why you still have boost when the shift is complete and the spark comes back on. Cooler than snot! Also during the cut the wastegate position goes the opposite way that it would normally (without WOT shift) - It opens some, whereas with a normal shift (non-WOT) it would close some. So for awhile the WG position graph looked kinda mixed up to me but now I see it.
Towards the top of each gear the WG is still not fully open, you are not running out of wastegate. Good! What voltage would be WG fully open?
Thanks Robert, this is a lot of stuff I've wondered about.
Last edited by Talonboost; Jul 4, 2008 at 11:37 PM.
9sec9,
That is one very impressive motor set up by DB, the power almost sounds violent in it's delivery. Initial bum dyno impressions seem like this FP White is going to be a torque monster given the correct supporting performance modification's.
Thanks once again for taking the time to test this turbo configuration Tom & David, the evo community is more the richer with blokes like yourselves.
Cheers Steve
That is one very impressive motor set up by DB, the power almost sounds violent in it's delivery. Initial bum dyno impressions seem like this FP White is going to be a torque monster given the correct supporting performance modification's.
Thanks once again for taking the time to test this turbo configuration Tom & David, the evo community is more the richer with blokes like yourselves.
Cheers Steve
Steveevo9, what's impressive is that this engine is a brand new build. I'm still using the original Stage 3 Bushur head with stock size valves, same exhaust manifold, same exhaust and same throttle body. Nothing special there. Hopefully, if David can think straight today, .................................................. .................................................. ......((4th of July + (cerveza*10)+ (party*(funfactor*9.9))))=HANGOVER
, we'll get some more tuning today and dial it in a little closer. I'll also be working on the sensor connections.
, we'll get some more tuning today and dial it in a little closer. I'll also be working on the sensor connections.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: McKinney TX
To answer the question about WG position, the fully closed position varies a bit depending on the temperature and expansion of the parts involved, its not a fixed value like TPS. Full closed is judged by min voltage at closed throttle or cruise, I don't think you can see it at all in that log. WG volts low- closed, WG volts high- open. It is a 1" travel sensor 0v-5v and closed position is ~1.2v-1.5v depending on temp. Full open is near 3v. It pretty much fully closes during shifts.
A rotary position sensor would have been nice but there was no way to rig one up so it was swappable on a budget without heat damage issues. Even so the 'cheap' linear sensor wasn't exactly cheap.
The only WG solenoid I could find that worked worth a **** for Normally Closed operation (bleed for higher boost) was the Greddy. With an inlet pressure of 35 PSI it dropped outlet pressure to 1.5 PSI at 95% DC. NONE of the other common solenoids would get even close, most were a min of ~15PSI. This is key to getting an internal gate to hold boost at high RPM.
Its a bone stock EVO9 trans. Just has some decent Motul fluid in it.
1st is too tall and 2nd is too short if you ask me.
The driver during that particular datalog tends to have poor shift point discipline and a retarded left leg.
A rotary position sensor would have been nice but there was no way to rig one up so it was swappable on a budget without heat damage issues. Even so the 'cheap' linear sensor wasn't exactly cheap.
The only WG solenoid I could find that worked worth a **** for Normally Closed operation (bleed for higher boost) was the Greddy. With an inlet pressure of 35 PSI it dropped outlet pressure to 1.5 PSI at 95% DC. NONE of the other common solenoids would get even close, most were a min of ~15PSI. This is key to getting an internal gate to hold boost at high RPM.
Its a bone stock EVO9 trans. Just has some decent Motul fluid in it.
1st is too tall and 2nd is too short if you ask me.
The driver during that particular datalog tends to have poor shift point discipline and a retarded left leg.
The logs are great!
I'm interested in internal wastegate performance, since a lot of the aftermarket ones work rotten. But looking at this one it works great. Right? I see no blow-open and no creep in 3rd and 4th gear. The PR, intake man pressure, and compressor outlet pressure all hold steady once they settle down from the shift. Ok, in 1st and 2nd gear the boost drops slightly as the revs increase, which would bring to mind blow-open, but I don't really see blow open there in the WG position chart. Well wait, it almost looks like the WG is never quite fully closed in 1st gear. Fully closed looks like it would be about 2.8 volts. So I wonder about that.
I see that the fearless GrocMax has wound it out to 50 mph in 1st gear, then apparently chickening out only picks up another 15 mph in 2nd gear. Is this a close-ratio gear box with a tall 1st gear or something?
I see the WOT shifts, which are accomplished by ignition cut. During the cut the exhaust mani pressure drops some but not a whole lot, which I guess is why you still have boost when the shift is complete and the spark comes back on. Cooler than snot! Also during the cut the wastegate position goes the opposite way that it would normally (without WOT shift) - It opens some, whereas with a normal shift (non-WOT) it would close some. So for awhile the WG position graph looked kinda mixed up to me but now I see it.
Towards the top of each gear the WG is still not fully open, you are not running out of wastegate. Good! What voltage would be WG fully open?
Thanks Robert, this is a lot of stuff I've wondered about.
I'm interested in internal wastegate performance, since a lot of the aftermarket ones work rotten. But looking at this one it works great. Right? I see no blow-open and no creep in 3rd and 4th gear. The PR, intake man pressure, and compressor outlet pressure all hold steady once they settle down from the shift. Ok, in 1st and 2nd gear the boost drops slightly as the revs increase, which would bring to mind blow-open, but I don't really see blow open there in the WG position chart. Well wait, it almost looks like the WG is never quite fully closed in 1st gear. Fully closed looks like it would be about 2.8 volts. So I wonder about that.
I see that the fearless GrocMax has wound it out to 50 mph in 1st gear, then apparently chickening out only picks up another 15 mph in 2nd gear. Is this a close-ratio gear box with a tall 1st gear or something?
I see the WOT shifts, which are accomplished by ignition cut. During the cut the exhaust mani pressure drops some but not a whole lot, which I guess is why you still have boost when the shift is complete and the spark comes back on. Cooler than snot! Also during the cut the wastegate position goes the opposite way that it would normally (without WOT shift) - It opens some, whereas with a normal shift (non-WOT) it would close some. So for awhile the WG position graph looked kinda mixed up to me but now I see it.
Towards the top of each gear the WG is still not fully open, you are not running out of wastegate. Good! What voltage would be WG fully open?
Thanks Robert, this is a lot of stuff I've wondered about.
Last edited by GrocMax; Jul 5, 2008 at 06:30 AM.
Heres some early 'butt dyno' results. David and I worked on the car Thursday evening and Friday afternoon. I had to remove the turbo, exhaust manifold, downpipe, oil lines, etc. All because I forgot to put the rpm sensor on the turbo housing. I have two complete setups ready to test and had the sensor in the other one. Back to the results. We fired the car for the first time Thursday and David did a very initial tune on the new AEM. Today, after getting the sensor installed (but not hooked up), we took it on the road so DB could begin the tune. Going North out of Wakeman, I could tell immediately that the new combination was going to show very strong midrange. It just want's to go. Ever drive a car that was difficult to hold back? This is that car. We made the run to my hotel then back to Wakeman, total of 20 miles. I then drove it to Davids house and going through a few twisties, I imagined my self on a road coarse and response in the 3000 rpm range is very good. Now, on to the wot test runs with VwJeff holding the laptop.
David wanted us to take the car to a local closed circuit and give it a wot from 2500 - 7000 rpm. We took off. First wot was from about 4000 - 7000 or so. Response again was IMMEDIATE and pull on the top was incredible. Again, 3200 or so to what I thought was 7000, again immediate response and STRONG midrange pull. We turned around and I had the car in 2nd gear, 2500 rpms and nailed it. It pulled strong to about 3200 or so, then the Quick Time Pros running about 14 psi, all 4 broke loose and the car did a torque steer slide. Very impressive. Jeff made the comment that it's power was IMMEDIATE and Strong. No lag at all. He also told me that I had just hit 8300 and the car was still pulling. I don't know boost, or anything else at this point. I did my job, 3 times over for David and the logs. Now, tomorrow we'll try to get a few dyno pulls. By the way, those strong pulls were at 10.5 AFR. Admittedly, the car and build are about as strong as an engine is going to be, but the turbo is extremely impressive and quick to respond. Is it stronger than the Green? I don't know, but breaking 4 Quick Time Pros loose at 3500 or so is enough to convince me that this turbo is going to be awfully strong. More to come.
David wanted us to take the car to a local closed circuit and give it a wot from 2500 - 7000 rpm. We took off. First wot was from about 4000 - 7000 or so. Response again was IMMEDIATE and pull on the top was incredible. Again, 3200 or so to what I thought was 7000, again immediate response and STRONG midrange pull. We turned around and I had the car in 2nd gear, 2500 rpms and nailed it. It pulled strong to about 3200 or so, then the Quick Time Pros running about 14 psi, all 4 broke loose and the car did a torque steer slide. Very impressive. Jeff made the comment that it's power was IMMEDIATE and Strong. No lag at all. He also told me that I had just hit 8300 and the car was still pulling. I don't know boost, or anything else at this point. I did my job, 3 times over for David and the logs. Now, tomorrow we'll try to get a few dyno pulls. By the way, those strong pulls were at 10.5 AFR. Admittedly, the car and build are about as strong as an engine is going to be, but the turbo is extremely impressive and quick to respond. Is it stronger than the Green? I don't know, but breaking 4 Quick Time Pros loose at 3500 or so is enough to convince me that this turbo is going to be awfully strong. More to come.
With comments like that ur going to make me spend some money sooner than i thought! The timing on this turbo is perfect as i was going to upgrade to a 9 turbo in a couple of months.
The only WG solenoid I could find that worked worth a **** for Normally Closed operation (bleed for higher boost) was the Greddy. With an inlet pressure of 35 PSI it dropped outlet pressure to 1.5 PSI at 95% DC. NONE of the other common solenoids would get even close, most were a min of ~15PSI. This is key to getting an internal gate to hold boost at high RPM.
Would you elaborate on the solenoid you found to be the best at holding the internal gate closed? Which model? Availability? Hookup methodology you're using? Thanks!
Well I just heard the numbers on the final run. I would get your order in right NOW. This will be the perfect daily driver/autoX turbo. Robert build me one. Indy
Last edited by Indy Evo; Jul 5, 2008 at 11:02 AM.