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The OFFICIAL Oil Filter Testing and Results Thread (4G63T/4B11T)
Dec 21, 2012, 11:07 PM
#79
Evolving Member
Now I have a better appreciation for why Ferraris have 2 oil filters 
I would imagine they run in parallel to double the flow capability which would greatly reduce the pressure differential across the filter elements, reducing or eliminating open bypass valve conditions.
I would imagine they run in parallel to double the flow capability which would greatly reduce the pressure differential across the filter elements, reducing or eliminating open bypass valve conditions.
For one thing the elements are huge, a lot bigger than what you find when you cut open one of these little canister things we're talking about.
If they have done their design right, the bypass valve that is built into the housing will be a high quality part, coupled with what should be low restriction from the huge element, there should be a lot less time spent with the bypass valve open.
Dec 22, 2012, 05:09 AM
#80
The other thing that comes to mind with this - the car makers (like BMW) that design their own bypass valve right into the housing that holds the filter element. When you change the filter you change only the element.
For one thing the elements are huge, a lot bigger than what you find when you cut open one of these little canister things we're talking about.
If they have done their design right, the bypass valve that is built into the housing will be a high quality part, coupled with what should be low restriction from the huge element, there should be a lot less time spent with the bypass valve open.
For one thing the elements are huge, a lot bigger than what you find when you cut open one of these little canister things we're talking about.
If they have done their design right, the bypass valve that is built into the housing will be a high quality part, coupled with what should be low restriction from the huge element, there should be a lot less time spent with the bypass valve open.
So in theory, what your saying, is that if your filter element is free flowing enough, there wont be the differential pressure to cause the bypass to open therfore your oil will be flowing filtered vs bypassing the filter in its 'bypass mode' so to speak?
Anyone thought about running a oil filter relocation kit utilizing a larger filter? I was able to do this with my mr2 turbo. OEM the filters are tiny on those cars, and right next to the exh manifold. I relocated it and made it so I could run a larger oil filter. IIRC, it cross referenced to dodge viper filter. I figured if that was made for a 8L engine it would work on my 2L,
. FWIW, I never had oil issues with that thing.
Dec 22, 2012, 07:52 AM
#81
Evolving Member
I think the filter relocation idea is good, as long as you can do it without causing too much slow-down in the initial delivery of oil to the engine during startup. I suppose it would also help if you could position the filter vertically with the screw-on end on top, so that the oil would never drain back out of the filter when the car is sitting there not running. I'm sure the anti-drain-back valves don't seal perfectly.
All this kind of stuff makes me want to have a separate switch for just about everything that happens in the starting sequence. You know, a switch for the fuel pump, another switch for an electric oil system priming pump that would run for a few seconds to bring oil pressure up, another switch for just the starter, and of course an ignition switch - separate from the starter switch. My son says airplanes are designed this way. Cars are dumbed-down so you don't have to know anything to drive one!
Whereas pilots are expected to know some things. Fighting the dumbing-down of the world - one stupidity at at time.
Dec 23, 2012, 10:39 AM
#82
But there is no need for huge filter design if the filter allows for high flow rates.
For example if an oil pump only flows 3 gal of oil per minute and the filter is low restrictive like the synthetic media filters which may allow for up to 10 gal of oil per minute the back pressure will correct itself during a long period of high oil pressure spikes therefore allowing the oil to pass through the filter element and not be bypassed all the times
So I noticed a few folks here were still hung up on the fact that a filter will remain open at higher pressures therefore allowing any junk to get back into the oil stream and again I say NO that is not how it works for HIGH quality filters.
Now Jerry's assumption about oil at high pressure going around the filter is very true for cheap filters made out of paper, paper filters get clogged up fast and during oil pressure spikes will go into bypass mode sooner.
Dec 23, 2012, 10:42 AM
#83
So in theory, what your saying, is that if your filter element is free flowing enough, there wont be the differential pressure to cause the bypass to open therfore your oil will be flowing filtered vs bypassing the filter in its 'bypass mode' so to speak?
Anyone thought about running a oil filter relocation kit utilizing a larger filter? I was able to do this with my mr2 turbo. OEM the filters are tiny on those cars, and right next to the exh manifold. I relocated it and made it so I could run a larger oil filter. IIRC, it cross referenced to dodge viper filter. I figured if that was made for a 8L engine it would work on my 2L,. FWIW, I never had oil issues with that thing.
Anyone thought about running a oil filter relocation kit utilizing a larger filter? I was able to do this with my mr2 turbo. OEM the filters are tiny on those cars, and right next to the exh manifold. I relocated it and made it so I could run a larger oil filter. IIRC, it cross referenced to dodge viper filter. I figured if that was made for a 8L engine it would work on my 2L,
. FWIW, I never had oil issues with that thing.YEP.
Dec 23, 2012, 11:14 AM
#84
ok, this doesn't make obvious sense to me. Based on the construction photos shown in the first post, the only pressure the filter can feel is a differential pressure across the media. It seems logical that the bypass is designed to keep the filter media from blowing apart under high differential pressure either from high flow or from being clogged (and also to keep oil flowing through the motor no matter what the status of the filter media).
I think Jerry is right in that all the garbage from a destructive event goes through the motor because it happens at high rpm where the differential pressure across the media is high and the filter is in bypass mode. However, I do wonder about how much oil flow is required to build up the necessary differential pressure to kick the filter into bypass mode. It could be much more oil flow than what happens at idle.
.
I think Jerry is right in that all the garbage from a destructive event goes through the motor because it happens at high rpm where the differential pressure across the media is high and the filter is in bypass mode. However, I do wonder about how much oil flow is required to build up the necessary differential pressure to kick the filter into bypass mode. It could be much more oil flow than what happens at idle.
.
Answer to your second paragraph,
Jerry is partially right ill tell you why. My answer is based on how we design filters here at AMSOIL which I assume other manufacturers are following suit as well.
Two circumstances where your filter will continuously run in bypass mode, for longer periods than you wish them to be.
- filter is cheap and uses very low quality media, such as OEM filters, fram and some others.
- filter is overly dirty and no more oil will go through the media at this point.
We don't know how long a filter will go into bypass mode when we got WOT very hard to test this. However we do know that we a good synthetic media filter will only be a few seconds at most. This can be a bad thing because we do know that the lower the quality of the filter the longer the bypass periods are which brings Jerry's point to be true where he stated the oil will never hit the filter media and particles end up back in the flow Bad thing right !
But what we are forgetting here is that there is also soot and other garbage in the oil that could overtime damage internal components. Lets pick soot, soot becomes fine sand paper for your bearings and other internal components, the more your filter goes into bypass mode the more your internals get blasted with soot so how do we take care of this issue is by using a filter that we know does not open and stay open in bypass for long periods.
Answer to your first para,
As one of the members in this thread has explained already I will repeat.
A good quality filter will not go into bypass mode for long periods lets say longer than 10 seconds at high RPMs, any good filter should be well designed to avoid this as it can be damaging to the engine.
This is how it works. An oil system in an Evo can pump let's say for example 3 gal of oil per minute, you want to allow your filter to receive up to let's say 6 gal of oil per minute. by design you can see where the filter allows much more oil to be pumped through it than what the oil pump can output this allows for a very low pressure are in that filter, therefore again it has much less restriction and hence allows 2 to 3 times the amount the car can flow. This is important for having a filter that will not open during WOT times or high pressure spikes.
This is the advantage that the folks who use synthetic media filters have over the ones using paper or whatever. Oil is passing through the media being filtered way more times than others.
i am not saying that if you cooked a bearing that all the particles will be stopped but i bet you i will see many less particles after a spun bearing that my neighbor.
Also they will keep their oil cleaner and engine healthier for longer periods, and the positives are not seen today but in the long haul.
The numbers above are examples and true data is concidered classified info.
Dec 23, 2012, 12:03 PM
#85
Regardless of filter media and manufacturer, these rules of thumb are the ones to keep in mind when purchasing a filter:
Filters with low capacity and high efficiency will tend to accumulate contaminants quickly and trip the by-pass value which means it's no longer doing you any good. These filters should generally be changed every 5,000 miles for sure.
Filters with high capacity and low efficiency can hold a lot of contaminants, but will definitely not protect your motor to the same degree, as more particulates will be circulating through the motor.
Filters that are both low in capacity and efficiency will cause increased wear and shorter motor longevity if used for a prolonged period.
Filters with high capacity and low efficiency can hold a lot of contaminants, but will definitely not protect your motor to the same degree, as more particulates will be circulating through the motor.
Filters that are both low in capacity and efficiency will cause increased wear and shorter motor longevity if used for a prolonged period.
Dec 23, 2012, 05:48 PM
#86
I have been looking at something like this.. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g4985-1/overview/
It uses a Fram PH8A or equivalent filter, which are pretty good sized. I was thinking of mounting it in the area where the oem oil cooler is at, and just bolt it onto the frame rail in that area. I am already relocating my oil cooler to the front as well. That section of the oem undertray comes off separately too, iirc. If not I can modify so it will to make oil changes easier.
Summit also offers the dual oil filter version for that, but I think that just might a bit overkill,
.
It uses a Fram PH8A or equivalent filter, which are pretty good sized. I was thinking of mounting it in the area where the oem oil cooler is at, and just bolt it onto the frame rail in that area. I am already relocating my oil cooler to the front as well. That section of the oem undertray comes off separately too, iirc. If not I can modify so it will to make oil changes easier.
Summit also offers the dual oil filter version for that, but I think that just might a bit overkill,
.
Dec 23, 2012, 10:55 PM
#87
Evolving Member
golgo, I just looked back through your pictures on page 1. I don't see any pics of the center tube used in the Amsoil filters. Do you have any pics of that? It's the perforations I'm interested in getting a good look at. Basically I'm wondering if they have round holes, or louvers, and if the 2 different Amsoil filters both have the same style of perforation.
Dec 24, 2012, 03:26 PM
#88
golgo, I just looked back through your pictures on page 1. I don't see any pics of the center tube used in the Amsoil filters. Do you have any pics of that? It's the perforations I'm interested in getting a good look at. Basically I'm wondering if they have round holes, or louvers, and if the 2 different Amsoil filters both have the same style of perforation.
WIX:
Champion Laboratories:
It looks like holes are punched in the tube in a spiral pattern for the WIX and in rows/columns in the Champion Laboratories.
Dec 24, 2012, 04:05 PM
#89
Thread updated, added Bosch Distance Plus D3323 and Royal Purple 10-2867 filters provided by TommiM for testing. Ideally, you will more than likely want the Bosch D3312, which is a larger filter if you decide on Bosch as your filter of choice.
Dec 24, 2012, 07:17 PM
#90
Evolving Member
Or maybe Champion Labs is just giving them whatever comes to mind at any given moment.
