I doubt in most cases that it is a PCV issue and more likely an oil pressure issue. I also get accumulation on my turbo inlet (GTX3576r) and this is not something I experienced with my stock motor. I have two -10's off the valve cover and it did not resolve the issue. I also measured crankcase pressure and it was close to atmospheric under full boost. I do notice my oil pressure with 10w-30 hits 100psi even when the car is warm so that is likely the cause. I am going to try the 25psi pressure reducer and make sure you are running an 0.035" restrictor.

 

Yw hopefully we will get a solution to fix our current turbos, or at least this will help others make a wiser decision than i when it comes time to buy a turbo.

 

Thanks for posting that link, for anyone having issues and before you read my post below please read this article as it explains the mechanics behind why the turbo will leak oil out of the bearing housing. That being said we'll now move on to why it may seem to be more common with our EVO IX BB Turbochargers than say with our 30/35R or JB Based turbochargers.

The reason is simple because we had to keep the outward appearance of a stock appearing MHI turbo but use a larger bearing pack the internal valley oil would normally be allowed to collect inside is smaller. Which means that smaller amounts of pressure can cause the turbo to leak, marginally smaller but we're talking about 10ths of a psi of pressure to begin with. So as not to seem like I'm just blowing smoke I encourage you to look up the white papers on crankcase pressures effect on turbochargers written by Holset, Garrett, and Borg Warner I'll try and dig up links for you later when I have more time.

Now we've done our own testing on our test vehicle and what we found was in line with what other manufacturers stated. As little as .05psi of pressure again that's .05psi inside the bearing housing could cause this issue. On our test vehicle that equated to around .5psi in the crankcase, not much pressure at all. Now a stock MHI bearing housing still leaks at about the same pressure but took a little bit more in the crankcase to get to that pressure but still less than 1psi of pressure in the crankcase.

Once we had this information we went about trying to figure out how to make our turbo less susceptible to crankcase pressure. Our first step was being able to quantify the sealing properties. So we built a rig that allows us to pressurize the bearing housing and measure leakage past the gas control rings. We then measured a few control turbos like Garrett BB CHRA's and stock MHI turbos all of which fell within the 45-50CFH range @ 5 psi. Now you may ask "why 5psi" because we want to subject the turbocharger to pressures well above anything it should logically see while in operation. Once we established what those turbo leaked we set out to make sure that our turbo sealed better and the design was tweaked so that every new turbo leaves here sealing better than 45CFH which means that our turbos seal as good if not better than the majority of turbochargers on the market.

Now being able to measure the leakage helps in two ways in terms of when someone has a problem it allows us to make sure it hasn't significantly changed since leaving and it allows us to instantly know that the turbos sealing mechanisms are doing it's job. From time to time we get turbos back with the complaint that it's "leaking" and of those 1 out of 10 may have a genuine problem that needs addressing. The other 90% seal just as good as the day they left, which means there is another issue that would need to be addressed in order to stop this issue.

Refer to the link at the top of my post for what those issues might be, over oiling is extremely rare if using our line kit as it's been designed to be fool proof but nothing is impossible. The drain is a common issue especially if it's happening at idle as the incoming oil is not able to drain adequately and is just pooling up inside the bearing housing but is easy to diagnose. Unfortunately crankcase pressure is by far the most common and the hardest to properly diagnose and is also the mosT misunderstood. So I'll focus on that issue a little bit.

We've taken the time to research a few of the catch can systems listed in this thread and I see a reoccurring theme. None of them provide any testing data showing that crankcase pressure is reduced or at least remains the same. They all have the sames sales pitch which is "this will keep the oil out of your intake" which is all fine and good but does not serve the same purpose of a crankcase ventilation system. A good crankcase ventilation system will keep crankcase pressure either at 0 or in vacuum during all operation. In our own testing with the stock system and making around 400WHP the system did an ok job keeping pressure in the crankcase at <.1psi.

Once we turned up the wick and got over 500WHP we found that .5psi was not uncommon with the stock crankcase ventilation system in place. So we did what most people would have done, increased the size of the lines and slapped a catch can with a big vent on the top and what we found was that crankcase pressure did not significantly reduce instead it increased as much as +.2psi dependent upon operating conditions. Why didn't it get better? That's easy the rest of the system down to the placement of the oil drain flange on the pan and the orifice size on the valve cover baffles were designed with the 2 vacuum source system in mind. So changing the size of the breather lines and disabling the vacuum source didn't yield favorable results.

After that we set it back up so that during load the catch can would have a vacuum pulled on it from the intake to the turbocharger and we saw a significant decrease in crankcase pressure and were back around the .1psi that we started with. Now our breather is directly off the block effectively completely redesigning the crankcase ventilation system and we never see positive crankcase pressure even at 700+HP.

So with all that being said we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that very little crankcase pressure can cause the issues some people see. Yet no one is able to give us any data on crankcase pressure beyond "I run xyz catch can" then when we look at their product page their is no data there either. At the end of the day though we can't fix what's not broken on our product. The sealing mechanism is better than the majority of turbos on the market but due to design we can't increase completely negate the impacts of positive crankcase pressure on our turbocharger. Also with 1000's of units in the wild this is still only impacts a small percentage of users.

We're always here to help, so if you need anything please don't hesitate to call us as we're here 5 days a week 8 hours a day.

-Michael

 

Thanks for the response.

Between your post here and the link I conclude that you are running 2, -10AN breather lines to a sealed catch can and 1, -10AN from the block to the air intake?

I appreciate your post but I would like to know exactly how the setup that you run is implemented. Thus myself and many others who have debated this for much time can model a system that works from what you have designed.
I just want it to work correctly. If you are suggesting changing to something that you have tested and works correctly I will need to know how your' s is setup.

 

I'm hesitant to share anything beyond I already have in fear that someone thinking it's the answer will just replicate it wholesale and when it doesn't work they're back in here screaming "you're full of **** I copied you exactly and it didn't work". Also it's not something that isn't already available in the market place our setup isn't special and unique.

The reason it worked for us is because we tested and monitored and quantified our results. We didn't just change parts until a symptom either appeared or dissapeared. It's like herpes just because someone doesn't have sores on their junk doesn't mean they don't have herpes. It just means you don't know whether or not they have herpes. The right way to do it is to first measure and find out how much crankcase pressure you have to deal with. If it's 1psi or more our setup may not work for you and you need to address what's causing the excessive crankcase pressure because no amount of crankcase ventilation will fix it. If it's less our system might be over kill and your stock system may be adequate.

It sounds like a pain in the *** and it is, but we're not playing with lego's we're building high performance cars that make sometimes 150+hp per cylinder out of our garages/shops. We understand it's easier to change parts then it is to properly setup and monitor something like crankcase pressure, however that doesn't give us much to go off of when you report that your turbo is leaking oil, yet when we test it leaks below the normal amount when pressurized.

We can only operate and give really good advice and answers when we have good data to work off of. In the instance of crankcase issues we get no data ever other than "oil is coming out of the inlet" in which we can only give generic advice to in terms of what to check. Beyond that unless data is supplied on how much crankcase pressure you're generating it's all just kind shooting from the hip.

-Michael

 

Thank you for responding to this thread. Along with oil leaking into the compressor housing, is it possible to leak out the exhaust side as well? I have an fp red with no ventilation system set up (which i am going to get asap) and i get a "puff" of smoke whenever i am WOT and let off the throttle. This is only the case when i let off the throttle once being in full boost. If you can please clarify this with me. I do not want to be mislead to this being a bad turbo when it is something much more simple. Thanks.

 

Yes it's possible to leak out both sides but more common out of the compressor side. A puff of smoke on decel might point to something as simple as a stick PCV check valve when the throttle plate closes the vacuum transitions from the intake vacuum source tot he intake manifold source. That moment when that happens if the check valve is sticking crankcase will build up and find the path of least resistance which in your case would be the turbine side gas control ring.

-Michael

 

Yup, pretty much correlates with the statements here:http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...eshooting.aspx

 

http://www.cumminsturbotechnologies....nuals/HX35.pdf

Here's a great OEM White Paper that details the same issue.

Specifically page 7 item 12 under installation data.

FYI .8kPA = .11psi.

-Michael

 

Just to report back, i havent changed anything yet. Still running the vta stm catch can the same way i had it, and im still getting the same amount of oil in the compressor side. Turbo hasnt failed yet i think it is more of a nuessiance than an actual problem worth being concerned about.

Ive put about two thousand hard miles on it so far and its been good. Hard miles being 80-85 mph highway travel to meets where we do occassional pulls then drive two hours highway back home. Im not winning races but im not stuck on the side of the road either lmao. The car is fast dont get me wrong lol

Happy? Sort of. Is it perfect ? No. Will i buy another fp product? Absolutely not. Regardless of catch can setups, i spent over two grand for a turbo i had to wait more than a month to be built, and on top of that the sob leaks oil. If its .xyz positive crank pressure that causes the leak, dont make it the consumers problem; figure out a better seal. For the price of these turbos thats the engineering level i expected only to be sourly disappointed. yeah it spools fast, it sounds awesome, and makes great stealthy power.. But it leaks oil!

Not bashing just telling my story and experience with the product. I hope this info can be used to develop this line of turbos into perfection. Please dont take it as an insult.

 

Well.....I sold my FP DBB Green and I am most likely going with another turbo, although another DBB Green with the new housing is tempting......

So, the buyer and myself made a deal and I shipped the turbo directly to FP to have them go through it and make sure it was in tip top shape for the new guy. We worked this cost into the deal, I didn't want to deal with any of these dispute threads so I figured this way was the best for both parties.
The results were that the turbo had oil leakage just over there threshold so the replaced the gas rings and everything else was great. When I first got the car it didn't leak and in the summer months it didn't leak, it only started leaking as the weather got colder. I was using Brad Penn 20/50 and I think it was just too thick upon startup when cold and this caused the oil to leak past the gas rings.
I will switch to a different oil in the colder months from now on. Also, I am going to change up my catch can setup. I am going to enlarge the valve cover holes to 10AN and also leave the 6AN port from the balance shaft breather inspection hole. They will go to the same catch can but I am going to seal it up and also put a 10AN line from the catch can the air intake.

 

Wish I knew about this issue before I bought my turbo. Sigh. I'm having the same issue, haven't even boosted yet, although the hose from the valve cover to the intake pipe was just vented open and not to the intake pipe I don't see how that could be the problem

 

You, me, and a lot of other people. This thread should be a sticky. It would save our community a lot of grief and wasted money.

 

I have to mention that my PTR6466 is doing the same thing... Suspecting crank case pressure! Running 30psi.

 

Correct. It happens to almost all of them with the crankcase pressure that these engines are creating. Even with those that have different styles of catchcans!!

Mike made perfect sense in his explanation of how certain oils and crankcase pressure can leak through to the compressor side. They've gone above and beyond fixing the issue to any reasonable standard, but they can't put it on the car for you.. Even the stock ones do it..