New Club on Evom: Truth Squad
Originally Posted by timzcat
This is exactly why I think an Advanced forum with very strict rules about content would be the best way to go. You will be hard pressed to find enough members to actually make up this group since just about everyone has mods. So having an area that is only about quality information with no off-topic or non-imformative posts would be the most productive.
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From: Inland Empire, CA
Originally Posted by ez76
The truth, the truth, the truth. Everybody wants the truth. Or do they? What is truth?
I am not sure there are many truths to be found here. And the real, absolute, 100% truths? Well you probably already know them and they're just not that interesting.
One harsh truth is we drive cars comprised of thousands of parts, each part subtly affecting every other and each potentially affected by dozens of major physical variables and hundreds of minor ones, to say nothing of the consistency of the conditions in which we observe how these parts interact.
When you put all of these parts together, a few interesting truths emerge, but like I said these are the ones you already know and have probably known for a while if you're reading this thread.
Really, everything else is situational - measurements, observations, anecdotes. The interesting chunks of information are the results that are repeatable, conditioned on some of these variables having nearly the same fixed values on every trial, weighted by the reputation of the parties offering them up.
What I'm really hearing in this very interesting thread is frustration about being able to find reliable information - put another way, some way to distill speculation from consistent observations (or at least learned theory); nonsense from sense.
A squad can't do that; a team of dedicated, well-meaning moderators can't do it. If there is anything the Internet has taught us, it is that it is the community as a whole that needs to decide and report on what is wheat and what is chaff.
Two successful models of community-reviewed information exchange that should perhaps be considered here if technically feasible include:
I am not sure there are many truths to be found here. And the real, absolute, 100% truths? Well you probably already know them and they're just not that interesting.
One harsh truth is we drive cars comprised of thousands of parts, each part subtly affecting every other and each potentially affected by dozens of major physical variables and hundreds of minor ones, to say nothing of the consistency of the conditions in which we observe how these parts interact.
When you put all of these parts together, a few interesting truths emerge, but like I said these are the ones you already know and have probably known for a while if you're reading this thread.
Really, everything else is situational - measurements, observations, anecdotes. The interesting chunks of information are the results that are repeatable, conditioned on some of these variables having nearly the same fixed values on every trial, weighted by the reputation of the parties offering them up.
What I'm really hearing in this very interesting thread is frustration about being able to find reliable information - put another way, some way to distill speculation from consistent observations (or at least learned theory); nonsense from sense.
A squad can't do that; a team of dedicated, well-meaning moderators can't do it. If there is anything the Internet has taught us, it is that it is the community as a whole that needs to decide and report on what is wheat and what is chaff.
Two successful models of community-reviewed information exchange that should perhaps be considered here if technically feasible include:
- the Wikipedia model
This is essentially the "set of sticky technical posts" idea suggested above, taken to the next level, i.e. community editing and annotation of tech "articles" rather than vBulletin's linear threading (which hopefully we agree is not the most useful presentation of information).
Wikipedia is useful and survives abuse because a dedicated community works continously to keep article quality high. - Multi-dimensional ratings and reviews of posters (reputation) and posts (quality, usefulness)
The classic fear here is abuse potential or artificial boosting of rating by people who really might not know any better. The solution is chains of trust. A hundred people might rate somebody's post knowledgable, but who will vouch for those hundred people? The gurus on this site are gurus because the most trusted people here also trust them - this model could be extended to all information and users on EvoM.
A few "guru" dimensions along which you might want to rate users and/or their posts might be:- technical or scientific accuracy
- general helpfulness
- demonstrated ability to get repeatable results
Wow! Your posts are so spot on. I don't know if many of you know this, but here in Southern California, ez76's EvoM post about the passing away of Mark M. was read in it's entirety on the local NBC evening news.
Yeah, maybe the word truth bugs people, but my intentions are honerable.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 150
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From: south colton
why are people so hung up on the aem vs xede post??? smoggy put out two graphs that were the closest he had available and invited an open discussion. that is the way to get real info. what the moderators need to do is prohibit the posting of second hand information and gay *** plus one type posts. if you didn't experience it first hand why bother saying anything. what kills me about most posts lately is that no one reads and comprehends before posting. what is going on with this post? it seems like the original poster asked an honest question and all that he/she got was a bunch of garbage in respone. https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=173058
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
. . . This is by no means an "elitist" group, but rather a group of people who make an extra effort to help others while being held to a higher standard of interaction/communication/knowledge. Mods will moderate...this is not moderation, but rather enlightenment of the masses.
I have read this entire thread, as I always do before I post anything. I feel I need to gather as much information before I can add anything worthwhile to the community. It is not possible to be completely bias free, and I am sure we all know that. Those of us who have gone a ways though modifying our cars have experience. We have learned from our experience. I know that if I had it all to do over again that I would not have bought half of the stuff I have. The best we can do is to help others learn from our experiences. It may save them time, it may save them money. It may save them headaches and hopefully make all of our cars faster, more reliable, and more fun to drive. Afterall, that is the whole point of being here.
Whether it is a FAQ, an Evopedia, or whatever, I will support it and try to contribute all the knowledge I have (however limited it may be).
EVOlutionary
This forum is paid for and built on vendor fees. That is a reality. It is not all the devil like some people would believe. There are vendors that run honorable businesses and there are less than honorable ones, that is the nature of business. Excluding vendors though or holding them suspect seems short sited.
Most of us do not work on evos on a full time basis currently and even fewer can claim to have worked on Mitsubishi's for say, a decade like a buschur or RRE etc. Firms like this learn a thing or too. If you get to know them on a favorable basis, you might even learn a thing or two yourself. Anyone who has gone through the trouble to stay in business as a vendor for a significant period of time DOES. Most car businesses do not last. The ones that do probably do a few things right. This is the problem. Evo folks are all internet crazy. They want the "truth" and don't seem to be willing to accept the reality that no one has a monoply on the "truth" and that there is usually more than one way to address an issue.
All we have is experience. I say everyone just step up and make an effort to keep the threads real and a little respect goes a long way among members. If everyone calls bs if someone is wasting a thread or lets the mods know, they have less to do and we have usable threads.
Truth Squad? I say just keep it real. Too many problems with saying any one "club" or group has a monopoly on knowledge. Saying your only agenda is "truth" is just bs. You have a point of view and you make things fit.
Tom, specifically I will site you on this:
That is just splitting hairs. You have made much of the last 6 months crusading your pov that a piggyback is best and aem's lack drivability. That is fine but mentioning Chiptorque without the fact that vishnu(who is a vendor on the site and his own forum for god's sakes) has the exclusive rights to sell that product is just misleading as is mentioning aem, given the vendors who tune and sell the ems.
Piggyback/standalone= different ways up the same mountain. One is not best for every situation. The tuner in my opinion is the issue anyway, not the system. The point is I think your clearly biased towards your pov on this issue and so am I. I am not about to claim I have a monopoly on the truth. I will tell you I have driven my ems every day to work for the past year and it starts, runs goes like snot and makes somewhere quite a bit north of the last dyno chart you saw on the internet. I just got tired of wasting effort arguing :P
Other folks have other pov and they will do the same- push their pov. I say the best route to the "truth" is a good discussion based upon FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE and recognition that NO ONE has a monopoly on the truth...
Experience, though is closest IMO and goes a long way in my book.
Enough elitism already...
Most of us do not work on evos on a full time basis currently and even fewer can claim to have worked on Mitsubishi's for say, a decade like a buschur or RRE etc. Firms like this learn a thing or too. If you get to know them on a favorable basis, you might even learn a thing or two yourself. Anyone who has gone through the trouble to stay in business as a vendor for a significant period of time DOES. Most car businesses do not last. The ones that do probably do a few things right. This is the problem. Evo folks are all internet crazy. They want the "truth" and don't seem to be willing to accept the reality that no one has a monoply on the "truth" and that there is usually more than one way to address an issue.
All we have is experience. I say everyone just step up and make an effort to keep the threads real and a little respect goes a long way among members. If everyone calls bs if someone is wasting a thread or lets the mods know, they have less to do and we have usable threads.
Truth Squad? I say just keep it real. Too many problems with saying any one "club" or group has a monopoly on knowledge. Saying your only agenda is "truth" is just bs. You have a point of view and you make things fit.
Tom, specifically I will site you on this:
Wait a sec T-Cat. That was out of line. We are to be admonished for comparing vendor products???
So far, the T-Squad has done the following:
1. Post up TSB of Mitsubishi Evos.
2. Post a poll of cam gear failures
3. Post up a poll of $ spent on Evos
4. Post up comparison a car with an AEM and another with an Xede. Last I checked, AEM is not a vendor on EvoM and neither is Chiptorque - the owner/manufacturer of Xedes.
So far, the T-Squad has done the following:
1. Post up TSB of Mitsubishi Evos.
2. Post a poll of cam gear failures
3. Post up a poll of $ spent on Evos
4. Post up comparison a car with an AEM and another with an Xede. Last I checked, AEM is not a vendor on EvoM and neither is Chiptorque - the owner/manufacturer of Xedes.
Piggyback/standalone= different ways up the same mountain. One is not best for every situation. The tuner in my opinion is the issue anyway, not the system. The point is I think your clearly biased towards your pov on this issue and so am I. I am not about to claim I have a monopoly on the truth. I will tell you I have driven my ems every day to work for the past year and it starts, runs goes like snot and makes somewhere quite a bit north of the last dyno chart you saw on the internet. I just got tired of wasting effort arguing :P
Other folks have other pov and they will do the same- push their pov. I say the best route to the "truth" is a good discussion based upon FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE and recognition that NO ONE has a monopoly on the truth...
Experience, though is closest IMO and goes a long way in my book.
Enough elitism already...
Last edited by gt40; Dec 8, 2005 at 08:36 PM.
Originally Posted by gt40
Enough elitism already...
It's cause people are seeing the word "truth" and taking it the wrong way. Perhaps truth was the wrong choice of words, but if people actually bothered to read what was being written here... maybe they wouldn't write irrelevant replies.
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
*sigh* The point was missed once again...for some reason, it's mostly the vendors complaining about EvoM members trying to find a bias-free place for discussion.
Last edited by gt40; Dec 8, 2005 at 09:13 PM.
So....why doesn't evom start something similar to vfaq? Whats the issue with doing this?
A good amount of people on here including myself gave numerous ideas about doing a new section on evom containing categories with subcategories. Why isn't this being considered or is it?
A good amount of people on here including myself gave numerous ideas about doing a new section on evom containing categories with subcategories. Why isn't this being considered or is it?
Originally Posted by EVOONYOASS
1. Why don't you lock and sticky a few of the useful threads and delete the repeated nonsense threads all together. Use the force luke, use the force!
2. Get rid of Evo General all together. If someone wants to spout off or rant about how they got pulled over today the only choice would be in what? OFF TOPIC!
3. Why is it so hard to lock and sticky a thread for new people to go read instead of asking dumb questions? Evom already has the how to section, why not the product section, or info section?
4. Make a section just for the new members. Give them access to all the info they will need. Direct them to the info without them having to search threw 3,000 threads. You can make it into categories and then into sub subcategories. (see below)
Category Engine
1. Head
a. cams
b. valves
c. springs
d. benefits of porting, etc, etc.......
2. Engine block
a. pistons
b. rods
c. rings
d. cylinder pressure temps, etc.....
3. Basic Mods
a. intake
b. exhaust
c. boost controller, etc....
You guys have the ability to set this site up any way you please, but I think making a section completely out of fact based reading is a whole lot better than having a posse patrol the site and set some newb straight.
2. Get rid of Evo General all together. If someone wants to spout off or rant about how they got pulled over today the only choice would be in what? OFF TOPIC!
3. Why is it so hard to lock and sticky a thread for new people to go read instead of asking dumb questions? Evom already has the how to section, why not the product section, or info section?
4. Make a section just for the new members. Give them access to all the info they will need. Direct them to the info without them having to search threw 3,000 threads. You can make it into categories and then into sub subcategories. (see below)
Category Engine
1. Head
a. cams
b. valves
c. springs
d. benefits of porting, etc, etc.......
2. Engine block
a. pistons
b. rods
c. rings
d. cylinder pressure temps, etc.....
3. Basic Mods
a. intake
b. exhaust
c. boost controller, etc....
You guys have the ability to set this site up any way you please, but I think making a section completely out of fact based reading is a whole lot better than having a posse patrol the site and set some newb straight.
So then change the name to the "Knowledge Squad" or whatever. As already stated the original name Truth Squad was just an idea. It was not meant to be the be-all-end-all absolute TRUTH. Just some folks who want to help and guide others with our experience.
This is a good thing for the good vendors. We will invariably help people find the best products - the ones that work. For those few companies slinging crap, (see the Ebay Buyers Beware thread), hopefully we can keep others from making mistakes.
EVOlutionary
This is a good thing for the good vendors. We will invariably help people find the best products - the ones that work. For those few companies slinging crap, (see the Ebay Buyers Beware thread), hopefully we can keep others from making mistakes.
EVOlutionary
Coming up for air from under yet ANOTHER EVO! Tom imo Trying to pass off opinions (well reasoned or ill reasoned) as "truth" I think that's what's bugging guys like David Buschur.
"truth" using a hidded race gas full cell and false intake temps on a "neutral dyno" by a "reputal vendor" that's why I never use ANYONE'S dyno BS..run some laps/ quarters it's the only dyno that counts anyway. off to bed now have a good time all.
"truth" using a hidded race gas full cell and false intake temps on a "neutral dyno" by a "reputal vendor" that's why I never use ANYONE'S dyno BS..run some laps/ quarters it's the only dyno that counts anyway. off to bed now have a good time all.
Originally Posted by robi
Coming up for air from under yet ANOTHER EVO! Tom imo Trying to pass off opinions (well reasoned or ill reasoned) as "truth" I think that's what's bugging guys like David Buschur.
Originally Posted by robi
"truth" using a hidded race gas full cell and false intake temps on a "neutral dyno" by a "reputal vendor" that's why I never use ANYONE'S dyno BS..run some laps/ quarters it's the only dyno that counts anyway. off to bed now have a good time all.
A lot of people who modify their cars do it for the pleasure of doing or pride of ownership, or whatever. These ppl are not racers and even if their car is perfectly set up and makes mucho power, they can be beaten handily by a skilled driver in an inferior automobile.....
Originally Posted by silverEVO8
Amen to that!
I disagree, all your test proves is that the combination of car & driver in a particular day is working well or poorly.... Dynamometers and other test instruments or criteria must be used in a controlled experiment to determine any results (positive or negative) of any particular modification.
A lot of people who modify their cars do it for the pleasure of doing or pride of ownership, or whatever. These ppl are not racers and even if their car is perfectly set up and makes mucho power, they can be beaten handily by a skilled driver in an inferior automobile.....
I disagree, all your test proves is that the combination of car & driver in a particular day is working well or poorly.... Dynamometers and other test instruments or criteria must be used in a controlled experiment to determine any results (positive or negative) of any particular modification.
A lot of people who modify their cars do it for the pleasure of doing or pride of ownership, or whatever. These ppl are not racers and even if their car is perfectly set up and makes mucho power, they can be beaten handily by a skilled driver in an inferior automobile.....