Perhaps the word "truth" was the wrong choice of words. Really, if some of you guys bothered to read through this thread then I don't see how this could be anything but a GOOD thing for EvoM. Nobody here professes to be unbiased - that's why it's a group effort and not a one man team. The whole point is to simply empower people with knowledge to make their own choices about their car, as opposed to simply being spoonfed "facts" by vendors or shops.

And just for the record, DB is probably one of the most (if not the most) honest and hard working vendors on this board. I wouldn't take it as an attack against you or your shop.

 

Fact of the matter is, the site has not officially spoken on this Truth Squad so this whole thread may be pointless.
For the person who asked if vendors were allowed to post or not, that was funny.
Warrtalon makes no decisions as far as who can post where on this site just like none of the other Truth Squad members. That would be up to the administrators and moderators of the site.

I think the whole Truth Squad idea has already defeated the purpose because they are comparing specific vendor products, such as AEM vs. Xede.
The idea would be to provide truthful information about products in general such as standalone vs. piggyback so that other members can learn and make informed decisions. As soon as you specify the products such as company A vs. company B you are only creating threads like all the rest on the forum.

 

Look, lots of people made suggestions about writing articles and such. I think that is just dandy and I support it.

I don't really care about the name: Truth Squad came to mind, because I wanted to remind members who contribute that the focus of the group is too shed light, not just to create heat.

Others, want a more parliamentary-type process to select who can be members of the T-Squad. That is great too. But I personally prefer a more anarchist/libertarian approach that isn't encumbered by process. T-Squad friendlies are encouraged to keep each other honest, as we all have tendencies to favor different vendors.

I'm just happy to call it the way I see it and I hope other members will call BS if I post something that is not truthful.

If a vendor wants to post their input, that is fine. I just don't want vendors to be "members" of the truth squad. They can post whatever they like, of course.

 

Wait a sec T-Cat. That was out of line. We are to be admonished for comparing vendor products???

So far, the T-Squad has done the following:
1. Post up TSB of Mitsubishi Evos.
2. Post a poll of cam gear failures
3. Post up a poll of $ spent on Evos
4. Post up comparison a car with an AEM and another with an Xede. Last I checked, AEM is not a vendor on EvoM and neither is Chiptorque - the owner/manufacturer of Xedes.

You say above that you want me to "provide information about products in gereral:such as standalones vs. piggybacks." Hey bro, I'm just a dude with an Xede. I don't have the experience to compare all standalone ecus to all piggybacks. I only know about my car with its mods and I saw a VERY similar car, with very similar numbers. So, I made an comparo and did not draw any major conclusions other than they were pretty comparable. BTW, my Xede was NOT tuned by Vishnu, but since my tuner is not a paying vendor, I don't talk about them out of courtesy to EvoM.

 

i think people are afraid the truth will hit too close to home smoggy. the minute a person may realize they got something they may not need or isn't the best, they will start to get defensive. you have to compare specific products to give valuable info. timzcat is a hypocrite if he/she disagrees. timzcat did the very same thing in the ecutek vs. afc debacle thread. i don't think a moderator should be allowed to debate the merits of any products that are sold or paying vendors. the power and influence they wield are too easily abused.

 

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...7&page=1&pp=15

This thread is an example of why I think the Truth Squad is a bad idea.

 

Problem is that this site is driven by vendors. I sure as hell would hate to have a product I designed torn apart but people who are not qualified. Smoggrunner posts a comparison between AEM and Xede yet he didn't even tune his own Xede? I would like to see his experince with AEM as well. Just doesn't seem right.

 

smogrunner,

Don't you see the irony of this?

You have an Xede so you posted about it. Meanwhile, Warrtalon has a Dynoflash and says he will not post about it because it would show bias.

Since there is no control over what is posted as a Truth Squad thread or who can post in there then aren't you guys just being honest about you experiences with parts or providing information about available mods.
I believe about 90% or more of our members post everyday about this stuff and they are truthful about it. Remember, if a guy gets X part and he is real happy with it then he is telling his opinion and to him he is telling the truth. If someone else thinks that part sucks then they are also expressing thier opinion and to them it is also being truthful. There is no objectivity to it.

 

Warrtalon and smog, I didn't mean for my post to turn into either of you catching any heat.

I too agree, not strongly enough to take any action on it, that a "group" is needed to help clean up some of the things on EVOM. Maybe the "Clean-up squad", you could have named it this and I probably would have never even bothered to look into what it was. Unless of course I had been asked to help with it. As I said, the "Truth" part of it is what just sticks me in the ribs.

I'd like to point out the thread I also started last week on the exhausts we have seen come through the shop. There are some companies selling parts here that are selling inferior parts that suck. I like finding a customers problem and fixing it, especially if the fix was something we make over something they had. Therefore the post about the exhausts, it further promotes what we do.

Smog, I feel you have a problem with my company or maybe you don't like me in particular and this also added to the offense I personally take. Pointing out a comparison between the AEM and Exede (since I am one of the larger EMS tuners) further lead me to believe maybe the motives of the Truth Squad weren't 100% what they should be. I read into many things that I am sure I should't but it keeps me on my toes That comparison of two different cars on two different days isn't a fair comparison for either car anyway. I feel to do any real test to compare two products it has to be the same day, same car, same dyno. I realize with an engine management it may not be possible to do the same day approach as sometimes tuning two different engine managements could take days. This would make a fair comparison same car, same fuel, same dyno, same boost etc. You are an intelligent guy and I am sure you see what I mean.

Warrtalon,

You are also intelligent and very informative. You do a great service on EVOM. I wasn't pointing any fingers at you in particular.

Anyway, many good things could come of this. Doing something of this nature is very hard to organize as every single guy here has his own agenda and his own version of what works and what doesn't. People think Staged upgrades are BS. Then you find a guy like Warrtalon and see how fast the car is and what he has and figure out it's basically a Stage 1 but of mix matched parts. It's also easy to add up various pricing from various guys and realize many times it is cheaper to buy it all at once from one guy and be done. Just an example.

Don't drop this idea. Many good things can come from it and there are a lot of great ideas in all of this.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Say what? I am entitled to my opinion just like everyone else on this forum. We moderate the site based on the rules put in place by the owner, not whether we like a vendor or not. There is a lot less bias to a particular vendor coming from moderators on this site then you will find with members. We don't talk about whose parts we use for just this reason. To be fair to all vendors.

 

Can you please post specifically where I am being DIS-truthful? There is no set of established rules. We are just enjoying our hobbies and offering advice based on experience. If Warrtalon doens't want to talk about his flash, that is his business. I am not about to limit myself to NOT talking about the things I know best. I ABSOLUTELY invite critical review of my posts technical merit.

 

"I want to get experienced members who are willing to be completely honest and 100% independent of various shops and tuners to join and promise to always be truthful, approach topics from a scientific standpoint as much as possible, and speak the truth to power."

Your Xede VS AEM was not even close to scientific and independent.

 

The truth, the truth, the truth. Everybody wants the truth. Or do they? What is truth?

I am not sure there are many truths to be found here. And the real, absolute, 100% truths? Well you probably already know them and they're just not that interesting.

One harsh truth is we drive cars comprised of thousands of parts, each part subtly affecting every other and each potentially affected by dozens of major physical variables and hundreds of minor ones, to say nothing of the consistency of the conditions in which we observe how these parts interact.

When you put all of these parts together, a few interesting truths emerge, but like I said these are the ones you already know and have probably known for a while if you're reading this thread.

Really, everything else is situational - measurements, observations, anecdotes. The interesting chunks of information are the results that are repeatable, conditioned on some of these variables having nearly the same fixed values on every trial, weighted by the reputation of the parties offering them up.

What I'm really hearing in this very interesting thread is frustration about being able to find reliable information - put another way, some way to distill speculation from consistent observations (or at least learned theory); nonsense from sense.

A squad can't do that; a team of dedicated, well-meaning moderators can't do it. If there is anything the Internet has taught us, it is that it is the community as a whole that needs to decide and report on what is wheat and what is chaff.

Two successful models of community-reviewed information exchange that should perhaps be considered here if technically feasible include:

• the Wikipedia model
  
  This is essentially the "set of sticky technical posts" idea suggested above, taken to the next level, i.e. community editing and annotation of tech "articles" rather than vBulletin's linear threading (which hopefully we agree is not the most useful presentation of information).
  
  Wikipedia is useful and survives abuse because a dedicated community works continously to keep article quality high.
• Multi-dimensional ratings and reviews of posters (reputation) and posts (quality, usefulness)
  
  The classic fear here is abuse potential or artificial boosting of rating by people who really might not know any better. The solution is chains of trust. A hundred people might rate somebody's post knowledgable, but who will vouch for those hundred people? The gurus on this site are gurus because the most trusted people here also trust them - this model could be extended to all information and users on EvoM.
  
  A few "guru" dimensions along which you might want to rate users and/or their posts might be:
  1. technical or scientific accuracy
  2. general helpfulness
  3. demonstrated ability to get repeatable results

If the EvoM community/staff truly want to push the envelope in useful community information exchange, bring the technology which will put judgment and responsibility not in the hands of few but in the hands of everyone.

 

That's not my point. You are saying that the "Truth Squad" is basically about the truth, which I think many members are already doing every day on this site without being in a club.

I thought the point of the truth squad was to start compiling information about different products and discuss advanced topics to allow the newbies to make informed decisions about what products they will decide to buy. Or to provide information about the Evo from various sources for reference. I wholeheartedly support the improvement of the content of the site. The problem is, the members of the Truth Squad all have a different idea of what the Truth Squad's mission is.

 

This is exactly why I think an Advanced forum with very strict rules about content would be the best way to go. You will be hard pressed to find enough members to actually make up this group since just about everyone has mods. So having an area that is only about quality information with no off-topic or non-imformative posts would be the most productive.