glad you put all the jaydeem companies and not the one that really are the best... stoptech, ap and brembo.

one thing i think i should say about this... it's no doubt that the alcon kit is bad *** because the numbers prove it. however there are other numbers that are hidden from you.

some of these numbers are from science. all things held equal in tires the only thing htat makes one set of brakes better than another is the ability to convert kinetic energy into heat. simply put that means bigger is always better. and bigger will always win (tires being equal that is).

that being said the alcon kit is a massive 14" and 14.5" that means the system is heavy. heavy enough that they don't tend to talk about hte weight or the weight savings.

i think one of the nice things about stoptech is their systems are the lightest available anywhere.

another possible problem with a bar none huge kit is that you may not be braking in harmony with your suspension anymore no matter how stiff you have your track setup... big clamp like that is just always gonna hit hard (as the nubmers prove) and you may have to run very drastic caster and such.

 

The bottom line is that you DO NOT need a gigantic, multi-piston, floating rotor, big brake kit for drag racing. Period.

The thing that makes big brake kits better than stock brakes are simply their ability to absorb heat. In dragracing (like in autocross) heat is NOT an issue. Hell, even on a racecourse, heat doesn't start becoming an issue until you get several laps deep.

Stock Evo brakes are more than enough for a dragracer. In fact, you might want to look into dropping in smaller brakes (like from a JDM Evo 7 RS) since you'll save SO much weight.

If all you want is a single hard stop, swap in some s.s. lines, add some good pads that are designed to grip at low temps (like PF-97's), and that's it. If anything, consider upgrading to a large master cylinder.

A full-bore big brake kit is purely bling in your application.

Emre

 

Have you actually used PF-97 pads? They're VERY gentle on rotors, even on the street. That's one of their selling points compared to other dedicated track pads. These are race pads that you "can" drive on the street if you need to.

Emre

 

Wow. Looks like people really fall for Stoptech's marketing hook, line, and sinker! Their big selling point is the whole "balanced brake upgrade" philosophy. The bottom line is that this is a total non-issue.

If you upgrade your front brakes to some massive, 6-piston Alcon monstrosity...sure you'll shift the brake bias forward. But so what? That's what God made brake bias valves for. Stick a $50 Wilwood valve in the system and adjust the front-rear brake bias to whatever your heart desires. Besides, it's not like you want the same bias all the time. Personally, I like an aggressive rear bias in the dry (it helps to rotate the car at corner entry) but I wouldn't want that much rear braking in the wet.

Further, the only people who really need these overblown brake systems (as opposed to those who just want them for the bling factor) are hardcore racers. If they're going to all the trouble to completely overhaul their brakes with top-dollar equipment, they'll budget a couple of hundred bucks for a proper pedal box with separate front and rear master cylinders anyway.

So the whole Stoptech "balanced brake upgrade" thing is kind of silly when you think about it. Pure marketing.

Emre

 

But the biggest possible isn't always best, correct? Bigger rotors do allow for greater heat dissipation and greater resistance to face, but too much heat dissipation will not allow the pads to warm to optimum operating temperature. Tight road courses would probably negate this effect (excessive dissipation) to a certain extent but what about the ordinary street car? I also don't expect purpose built track cars to use big supersized rotors for the rotational mass penalty.

I also remember hearing about the Panasonic-Toyota Formula 1 squad opting to use smaller pads on some tracks to generate greater pressure over the pad area and hence increase braking power, akin to cutting a piece of butter with a big aluminum bar vs. a sharp edged knife. I guess my question is... is the rotor or the pad a more important piece of the braking puzzle? Clarification would be appreciated.

 

that's not right. if bigger is better in the way i stated then you won't run outta heat, cuz the heat will be the same amount between two kits it's just one takes it better. what you're trying to discuss is an extreme condition but it's also one that would never happen even given the most optimun extreme conditions to make it happen. bascially even if you do one long cold stop the big one will still win out because if you're generating enough heat the pads will hook up and if you're not then both don't and either way the one with more rotor wins.

i don't know what you mean by tight courses will negate that effect cuz tight courses would require more braking right? in any case what i said still stands. ordinary street car or what not. the rotor will heat the pad the same in either condition, the pad's heat isn't too much based on the rotor and if it is it isn't so sensative as to take the operating temps away. think of it like this... even if i had an infinite rotor, once you clamp the pad down the pad still generates heat... it's just the infinite rotor is always cold to take it away, but the pad is still hot.

actually purpose built race cars would be the ones to take the hit in weight, why? cuz you can overpower some weight with hp but you can't take away fade and gauratee reliability with hp. this is akin to the whole drag racers automatic transmissions myth that non car people believe, lost of people believe auto is bad for drag racing. you gotta know this is untrue because you can always get more power, but you can never shift faster than your fastest shift.

a smaller pad will definitely increase the pressure per area across the pad. but this can be done wtih brake proportioning valves and master cylinder combinations and such, it doesn't have to be done wtih a smaller pad. but they might have done it in this instance cuz they already had the car the way it was and the driver needed more pressure or something about hte condition needed more and they needed a quick fix or rules prevented them from doing a more elaborate one.

it is not akin to the exmple you cited (*i shouldn't say not, but here's a better example), it's akin to running a bigger wider tire with a thinner not as wide tire. and here you see the obvious trade off, more pressure don't mean more traction, cuz in the skinnier tire you have more pressure on the rubber but we all know that a wider tire will get you more g's. so it's a tradeoff and you must do it carefully (i bet they did).

 

trinydex... thanks for helping prove my point. I have mono bloc brembos (Indy) front and rear with full floating rotors on my track car. When I run Ferodo DS3000 pads...well...JDM WHO?

 

i like stoptech brakes for a variety of reasons... they're also not supplying any professional racing teams that i know of so their market IS general consumers. lots of people wanna put their brakes on and know that they work with the stock abs and will not put them in a bad hairy position when they are at the limit and even more people wanna know that these people put the sodding brakes on THEIR specific car before they tried to sell it to the world (i bet lots of those jdm brake systems are still based off the first supra they ran them on). it's not so much as hype as just good ol honest hard work if you ask me.

i don't know if kent jordan is running a brake proportioning system, i'd bet he isn't... but i'd consider him a hardcore racer and i think people running evos aren't in the market or in the echelons of racing where this type of thing is essential. espeically if there are products that are designed so that you don't need them. i think kent likes his stoptechs. :\

almost sounds like you're gonna one up people that aren't running brake proportioning systems cuz it's cool... and antibling... altho that is in and of itself a bling/rice factor/mentality there.

haha... honestly not tryinna flame... just givin you' a hard time haha

 

i know if you race tehm they're gentle on rotors. i just know my friend had a .7cm lip on the inside of his rotor and it was hanging on his caliper cuz he wasn't careful. he only went through two sets of pf97 pads on the street. that's pretty bad :\ indeed it was due to his neglect that it got so bad there needed to be emergency replacement... but also... another friend of mine ditched his ap replacement rotors becuase the pfs ate them... and he was running pagids before with minimal wear.

 

hehe i think lots of people put too much faith into jdm goodness. i'll be the first to concede that they make good stuff for import cars. mainly cuz they have access and they've had them for longer. but they're not the best ever... also japanese racing is different than the rest of the world they ahve different needs and those are expressed through their products. if anything they always have good quality and fitment and that's very nice too.

but seriously... when you're messin' with hte big boys which is the price league that most of the jdm hottness is in... the big boys have been around.

 

My point exactly. Two pages ago? When you go "high end...best brakes", better look a little further than just the JDM stuff fo shizzle! I put the Titan Kai pads in the Evo, and after ONE twenty minute session at Buttonwillow my stock Brembo's were Brownbo's. The Titan Kai's couldn't take the heat, to the point where my center caps melted out of my rims. Now that being said, I do brake a little harder than most.

 

Some of the Best Road Racing brakes are "MOV'IT's" that are made in Germany. The cost is based on the current EURO to Dollar exchange rate when ordered, about $3300. Around the same cost as other high end kits.

www.movit.de

MachC5

 

A brake bias valve costs less than $100 and is easy to install and use. This is hardly an exotic piece of machinery! (BTW, I'd be willing to bet that Kent Jordan does have adjustible brake bias...as does just about every single racer who's allowed to by his/her class).

My point is that people pay ridiculous prices for Stoptech gear even though they can get race-proven gear (like Wilwood, for example) for less money. The big selling point of "balanced brake upgrades" strikes me as kind of ridiculous since brake biasing is easy enough.

Emre

 

dunno if this is current but i heard that wilwood calipers flex pretty badly...

 

Look, NO race pad will work well on the street. ALL race pads are much harsher on rotors when driven on the street than street pads. That's the natuire of the beast

The point is, that PF-97's are actually incredibly gentle on rotors...for a race pad. So, I think you're wrong to say that PF-97's are harsh pads. They're much better in terms of rotor wear than just about any other race pad you can think of.

Emre