Game over for AEM EMS?
What do you guys do to pass an inspection? Most states do, or will require OBD-II to pass.. The truth is (and I've said this before) I'd probably be running an AEM or some other standalone if that wasn't a concern.
It is worth the money...
I just got my car back after having the aem installed...what a difference! not only did I gain 30 whp and 30 wtq over stock with everything else the same, but the car is much smoother and easier to drive. This is discounting all the features already mentioned about the AEM. Worth the money!
Last edited by cnoevo8; Aug 1, 2006 at 06:06 PM.
Originally Posted by cnoevo8
I just got my car back after having the aem installed...what a difference! not only did I gain 30 whp and 30 wtq over stock with everything else the same, but the car is much smoother and easier to drive. This is discounting all the features already mentioned about the AEM. Worth the money!
I am definitly jealous of the guys who don't need to worry about OBD-II, but isn't all of that changing? And bribery/fraud aren't acceptable ways of passing an inspection..
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Interesting topic.
Truth's to both sides of the arguements, for sure. Just to get involved here I'll voice my opinions too
Stock ECU with a reflash for sure is the best route for 95% of EVO owners with stock turbos. We don't recommend a stand alone of any type until after our Stages 1-4. You can find those on our site if you are curious. You can't beat the stock ECU for the money it is going to cost you to have flashed and the overall performance and such.
With that said I will also say that on a car such as Smogrunners I would gaurantee I could make the car faster than it is now, drive just as well, get as good or better fuel mileage, give you unlimited choices to mount your air filter to get cold air vs. being limited with your MAF sensor. Etc. etc.
As for load points. There are a bunch of standalones that also max out their load points, Apexi Power FC and HKS V Pro's are two of them. Neither off 5 bar map sensors so on high boost applications you end up tuning on the last row past what it is designed to work at. Sean is right, it works but when you turn the boost down or up from there you have problems again.
I have a bunch of good examples of guys making great power and being happy with their AEM EMS's. I will only use two of them as I know for fact everything done to their cars.
Jarrod, my sales manager is one. His car has a BONE STOCK SHORTBLOCK, HEAD, INTAKE and THROTTLE BODY on it. Stock valve springs, retainers etc. Only uses 272 HKS cams, our GT3065 turbo kit, 780cc injectors, Race FMIC and the remainder of our Stages 1-4. Also has the AEM EMS of course. On C16 with 29 psi of boost the car ran 11.0 at 128 mph. The car has a mild sound system in it, TV, full weight minus the spare and front bumper beam. He got 24.3 mpg coming back from the Winged Warrior Event a few weeks ago. Car is far from being set on kill, AFR's are at the leanest point 11.5 (which is much richer than the almost 13.0:1 AFR's on the dyno sheet above from TT). He doesn't want the car blown up.
Next example is Trent's car, our welder here. His car has about 50,000 miles on it. BONE STOCK HEAD, SHORT BLOCK, INTAKE MANIFOLD and THROTTLE BODY. HKS 280 cams, 680 cc injectors, BR20g-9-5, BR race FMIC and the remainder of our Stages 1-4. Also, stock springs/retainers etc. AEM EMS. This car is a good example as it was run previously on a reflash and ran well. But, with the AEM EMS on it, I tuned it to 23 psi on 93 octane and the car has been running consistent 11.5's at 121 mph now. NO alky. This car is also full weight minus the spare, front bumper beam and it has Bear rotors on it.
Very limited mods on two very fast cars.
I have the reflashing software too. I do respect Al and his abilities though and have not messed with any reflashing and probably will not. Watching him tune, regardless of what some of the armchair tuners on here want to think, he is excellent at it and I don't think I can pull more power out of the flash than he can. This means that it is not a matter of the tuner holding it back but more the computer.
Just my opinions.
Truth's to both sides of the arguements, for sure. Just to get involved here I'll voice my opinions too
Stock ECU with a reflash for sure is the best route for 95% of EVO owners with stock turbos. We don't recommend a stand alone of any type until after our Stages 1-4. You can find those on our site if you are curious. You can't beat the stock ECU for the money it is going to cost you to have flashed and the overall performance and such.
With that said I will also say that on a car such as Smogrunners I would gaurantee I could make the car faster than it is now, drive just as well, get as good or better fuel mileage, give you unlimited choices to mount your air filter to get cold air vs. being limited with your MAF sensor. Etc. etc.
As for load points. There are a bunch of standalones that also max out their load points, Apexi Power FC and HKS V Pro's are two of them. Neither off 5 bar map sensors so on high boost applications you end up tuning on the last row past what it is designed to work at. Sean is right, it works but when you turn the boost down or up from there you have problems again.
I have a bunch of good examples of guys making great power and being happy with their AEM EMS's. I will only use two of them as I know for fact everything done to their cars.
Jarrod, my sales manager is one. His car has a BONE STOCK SHORTBLOCK, HEAD, INTAKE and THROTTLE BODY on it. Stock valve springs, retainers etc. Only uses 272 HKS cams, our GT3065 turbo kit, 780cc injectors, Race FMIC and the remainder of our Stages 1-4. Also has the AEM EMS of course. On C16 with 29 psi of boost the car ran 11.0 at 128 mph. The car has a mild sound system in it, TV, full weight minus the spare and front bumper beam. He got 24.3 mpg coming back from the Winged Warrior Event a few weeks ago. Car is far from being set on kill, AFR's are at the leanest point 11.5 (which is much richer than the almost 13.0:1 AFR's on the dyno sheet above from TT). He doesn't want the car blown up.
Next example is Trent's car, our welder here. His car has about 50,000 miles on it. BONE STOCK HEAD, SHORT BLOCK, INTAKE MANIFOLD and THROTTLE BODY. HKS 280 cams, 680 cc injectors, BR20g-9-5, BR race FMIC and the remainder of our Stages 1-4. Also, stock springs/retainers etc. AEM EMS. This car is a good example as it was run previously on a reflash and ran well. But, with the AEM EMS on it, I tuned it to 23 psi on 93 octane and the car has been running consistent 11.5's at 121 mph now. NO alky. This car is also full weight minus the spare, front bumper beam and it has Bear rotors on it.
Very limited mods on two very fast cars.
I have the reflashing software too. I do respect Al and his abilities though and have not messed with any reflashing and probably will not. Watching him tune, regardless of what some of the armchair tuners on here want to think, he is excellent at it and I don't think I can pull more power out of the flash than he can. This means that it is not a matter of the tuner holding it back but more the computer.
Just my opinions.
After reading what you and Al wrote I am confused on the absolute power a stock ecu can make. If I came to your shop and you guys installed a 2.3 stroker, 37R turbo kit, front mount, and whatever fuel option was needed...and we upgraded the maf or changed location like a blow through...couldn't Al come and tune the ecu for this set up? Or does my original question arise again, which asks, is this too much power to try and tune with the stock ecu?
This is the set up I want to go with very soon...but I do want to pass CT emissions if possible, which will be hard with 280 cams to say the least, but losing the stock ecu would destroy any shot at this. Lastly, even if it can be done, I am curious how much power I would be leaving on the table versus the aem unit.
Thanks, and by the way I was stoked to see you guys selling tubular headers for your big turbo kits...I haven't been to your site in a while and noticed them last night.
Sweet!!!
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
What do you guys do to pass an inspection? Most states do, or will require OBD-II to pass.. The truth is (and I've said this before) I'd probably be running an AEM or some other standalone if that wasn't a concern.
I dont really know what i will do to pass emissions with my race car.
When I had my WRX with full JDM C SPEC STI motor ecu and drivetrain conversion it took me a week of work to make it legal enough to pass emissions
With my Evo its going to be a bit more difficult
I suppose the OBDII issue is one area where the V pro really excells, Pruven Performance my dyno shop and repair facility I use does the V pro in many Evos and they are very compatable with evos. The big draw back to me is that you can not re-tune them unless you are a V pro dealer. Also the V pro is good becuase it already works on the MIVEC IX cars
[QUOTE=evo_08]i live in louisiana we dont have obd2 test here or if we did LA is a state of crooks u just pay someone[/QUTOTE]
In Ct they did away with paying someone
The whole process is watched live on web cam by DMV and the testing person must log in to a central computer and get optically scanned to do each test
Big brother is watching for real
In Ct they did away with paying someone
The whole process is watched live on web cam by DMV and the testing person must log in to a central computer and get optically scanned to do each test
Big brother is watching for real
Originally Posted by Mulholland0132
After reading what you and Al wrote I am confused on the absolute power a stock ecu can make.
Originally Posted by nothere
speaking of cams, has a method been developed to remap the knock sensor for different mechanicals when using the ecuflash?
Or do you go about knock control differently?
Or do you go about knock control differently?
Originally Posted by WrX Kila
Very interesting points. Next year (God Willing) I am planing to break the 600whp mark.... so I will purchasing a AEM EMS.
Those who contemplate using the stock ecu for large whp applications, IT CAN be used for those type of applications and I have a few ideas on how you can do so
First of all I have tuned several evos with the stock maf sensor and ecu to about 540 whp which is about as far as I felt comfortable with the limited resolution over a certain load point which is about 450 whp when you saturate the stock maf sensor
When you reach that point there are many options
1 - You can simply use a larger MAF tube or make a by pass tube around the maf sensor and reclaibrate the maf sensor - the maf size is a tuneable parmeter as is maf scaling. On a subaru project with ecutek I was able to make nearly 600 whp by simply using a bigger maf tube and re-calibrating the maf sensor. Usually this takes a lot of time to run the car through all load points and get the partial throttle tuning smooth but it can enable you to work around the resultion of the stock maf sensor.
2 - Another way is by using EMANAGE which is what I originally used in my evo 3 years ago when I was running low 11's all day and night with my evo on a GT30 turbo. The Emanage clamps the maf voltage at a certain point and over that threshold you use the greddy map sensor as a speed density load reference and the injector driver function. You can either use a set of larger injectors or drive a second set of injectors. This is a very cheap, effective and powerful tool and has great data logging and map trace functions. This is a great system which I had a lot of sucess with. One pitfall was the early propensity of the emanage to eat evo coils - this may have been recitifed in newer versions.
The driveability and partial throttle is all oem and it retains obd Ii function with virtually unlimited top end potentiual.
3 - MAF eliminator boxes - there are several out there which can give you unlimited speed density but which may proove difficult to get the driveability dialed in 100-%.
Basically, I came to the conclusion with my own car that having multip,le boxes was getting too complicated and I could do everything I needed to and have great data logging with the aem
I suppose the fact that AEM has been a very good sponsor of my race car and Buschur Racing has been a very good tuner made my decision a bit easier !
First of all I have tuned several evos with the stock maf sensor and ecu to about 540 whp which is about as far as I felt comfortable with the limited resolution over a certain load point which is about 450 whp when you saturate the stock maf sensor
When you reach that point there are many options
1 - You can simply use a larger MAF tube or make a by pass tube around the maf sensor and reclaibrate the maf sensor - the maf size is a tuneable parmeter as is maf scaling. On a subaru project with ecutek I was able to make nearly 600 whp by simply using a bigger maf tube and re-calibrating the maf sensor. Usually this takes a lot of time to run the car through all load points and get the partial throttle tuning smooth but it can enable you to work around the resultion of the stock maf sensor.
2 - Another way is by using EMANAGE which is what I originally used in my evo 3 years ago when I was running low 11's all day and night with my evo on a GT30 turbo. The Emanage clamps the maf voltage at a certain point and over that threshold you use the greddy map sensor as a speed density load reference and the injector driver function. You can either use a set of larger injectors or drive a second set of injectors. This is a very cheap, effective and powerful tool and has great data logging and map trace functions. This is a great system which I had a lot of sucess with. One pitfall was the early propensity of the emanage to eat evo coils - this may have been recitifed in newer versions.
The driveability and partial throttle is all oem and it retains obd Ii function with virtually unlimited top end potentiual.
3 - MAF eliminator boxes - there are several out there which can give you unlimited speed density but which may proove difficult to get the driveability dialed in 100-%.
Basically, I came to the conclusion with my own car that having multip,le boxes was getting too complicated and I could do everything I needed to and have great data logging with the aem
I suppose the fact that AEM has been a very good sponsor of my race car and Buschur Racing has been a very good tuner made my decision a bit easier !
Last edited by DynoFlash; Aug 1, 2006 at 08:56 PM.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Jarrod, my sales manager is one. His car has a BONE STOCK SHORTBLOCK, HEAD, INTAKE and THROTTLE BODY on it. Stock valve springs, retainers etc. Only uses 272 HKS cams, our GT3065 turbo kit, 780cc injectors, Race FMIC and the remainder of our Stages 1-4. Also has the AEM EMS of course. On C16 with 29 psi of boost the car ran 11.0 at 128 mph. The car has a mild sound system in it, TV, full weight minus the spare and front bumper beam. He got 24.3 mpg coming back from the Winged Warrior Event a few weeks ago. Car is far from being set on kill, AFR's are at the leanest point 11.5 (which is much richer than the almost 13.0:1 AFR's on the dyno sheet above from TT). He doesn't want the car blown up.
Alfred at TTech
Originally Posted by Alfred@TTech
Hmmm. We all know the wideband samples from the tailpipe. Its common knowledge that it will read a little leaner there than if we had it closer to the turbo. We do have a separate on board wideband which tells a different story. AFR's are in the mid elevens and below. The car is not on kill and I nor Tom want his "car blown up" either. Cheers
Alfred at TTech
Alfred at TTech
The county I live in has no emmision testing, so I am lucky. Trent's county does have it I believe. If you go in to test and your car fails in Ohio you can try to fix it. I think the law says if you pay $600 or more in repair bills to try to have it fixed and it still fails you can get an exemption. I had a 1g DSM owner in a few weeks ago, running a Eprom'd ECU and VPC, could not pass testing. He came in and I dyno'd the car, checked the AFR's. Suggested we tried a GCC with his VPC. I also wrote him a receipt for the GCC, dyno time and a fuel pressure regulator, came to about $900. Luckily when he went back for his next test the GCC actually fixed the car and he passed the test. Had he not passed the receipt for the parts would have gotten him the exemption.
My RS running 11.1 at 124 was on C16.
My RS running 11.1 at 124 was on C16.