MT Vs. CVT
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 137
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From: Tucson, AZ
honestly.. in this day and age there is no performance reason not to pick an automatic. especially with the computer controlled things on tap, simple computer tweek maybe a torque converter. you get both a 'racing' setup in a manual or ratchet mode, and a cruising/daily mode.
think about it.. it's no different then the route people go with short shifters, lighter flywheels, and stronger clutchs
basically it really comes down to your personal preference mind you this is from a performance modifying stand point... stock to stock, the 5spd is gonna be a little more performance, while the CVT is a little compromise of daily commuter/family car and spirited runs here and there.
personally I'm tossed up. For me, I need a multipurpose car. I race autoX and TSD rally, but I also need something i can drive literally every day year round (one of the reasons I'm finally buying a brand new car) I also want a car that I work on for fun, not cause I gotta fix the next thing worn out on a used car ( I do that daily already as a mechanic)
I also plan on running a very healthy nitrous shot instead of turbo (mainly cause I can turn it off for the daily grind driving and save fuel/engine stress) and the unknown strength handling of the cvt does worry me a little. on the other side of the coin in autoX or tsd.. just a paddle shift and no clutch to worry about is very inticing.
when I went to set up for my new car.. ofcourse I test drove the 5spd, before I set my final order, I'm gonna take a cvt for a quick run just to see.
as a side note.. for the 0-60 runs, and 1/4 times... how does the CVT power brake before it's launch?? I do hope the people running these 'tests' and such are powerbraking their cvts?????
so basically the point of this ramble was... mt or cvt.. really differs more on what YOU want to do with the car .. in the 1/4 the cvt should be able to make up what ever ground it lost from the launch by the end of the track so they should be neck and neck in the 1/4
think about it.. it's no different then the route people go with short shifters, lighter flywheels, and stronger clutchs
basically it really comes down to your personal preference mind you this is from a performance modifying stand point... stock to stock, the 5spd is gonna be a little more performance, while the CVT is a little compromise of daily commuter/family car and spirited runs here and there.
personally I'm tossed up. For me, I need a multipurpose car. I race autoX and TSD rally, but I also need something i can drive literally every day year round (one of the reasons I'm finally buying a brand new car) I also want a car that I work on for fun, not cause I gotta fix the next thing worn out on a used car ( I do that daily already as a mechanic)
I also plan on running a very healthy nitrous shot instead of turbo (mainly cause I can turn it off for the daily grind driving and save fuel/engine stress) and the unknown strength handling of the cvt does worry me a little. on the other side of the coin in autoX or tsd.. just a paddle shift and no clutch to worry about is very inticing.
when I went to set up for my new car.. ofcourse I test drove the 5spd, before I set my final order, I'm gonna take a cvt for a quick run just to see.
as a side note.. for the 0-60 runs, and 1/4 times... how does the CVT power brake before it's launch?? I do hope the people running these 'tests' and such are powerbraking their cvts?????
so basically the point of this ramble was... mt or cvt.. really differs more on what YOU want to do with the car .. in the 1/4 the cvt should be able to make up what ever ground it lost from the launch by the end of the track so they should be neck and neck in the 1/4
Equal drivers with the same car one having MT the other CVT.... would you mind explaining how this statement would ring true?
If the MT driver gets a better launch and hits his shifts right where is there any point that the CVT driver catches the MT driver????
You hoped wrong. I was just sitting at a dead stop and then hitting the gas to go. No revving or powerbraking was done. I do real-world tests (I don't usually powerbrake at stoplights, you know?) more than "gimme a good number" tests.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Dirty Jersey
Actually I've been interested in performance of 2008 Lancer manual vs CVT and so far the fastest manual 0-60 time I've found was 7.65 (Lancer ES) reported at: https://www.evolutionm.net/features/article.php?id=80 and the best 0-60 time for the CVT (Lancer GTS) was 9.1sec http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...fications.html (I don't know if this was in manual mode or automatic mode)
Either way, there is an over 1 second of difference so it is noticeable, one thing about the CVT in the new Lancer is that as the Motor Trend times show, the 0-30 acceleration is rather sluggish but then 30-60 acceleration is the best of the bunch, either way, 2008 Lancer has a better 0-60 acceleration than Civic, Sentra, and Elantra
However, I think that there is some room for improvement (Optimization of the Lancers CVT as the 0-60 time between CVT and manual seems to be over a second different and also worth noting is that the Sentra in the Motor Trend test also had a CVT tranny but the acceleration didn't suffer the 0-30 lag and it had a more smooth power delivery than Lancer so it might be engine optimization and/or CVT optimization, I just hope it's nothing mechanical and some software tweaking will do the trick)
Either way, there is an over 1 second of difference so it is noticeable, one thing about the CVT in the new Lancer is that as the Motor Trend times show, the 0-30 acceleration is rather sluggish but then 30-60 acceleration is the best of the bunch, either way, 2008 Lancer has a better 0-60 acceleration than Civic, Sentra, and Elantra
However, I think that there is some room for improvement (Optimization of the Lancers CVT as the 0-60 time between CVT and manual seems to be over a second different and also worth noting is that the Sentra in the Motor Trend test also had a CVT tranny but the acceleration didn't suffer the 0-30 lag and it had a more smooth power delivery than Lancer so it might be engine optimization and/or CVT optimization, I just hope it's nothing mechanical and some software tweaking will do the trick)
Last edited by blitzkrieg79; Jun 28, 2007 at 11:38 AM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 132
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From: Nanaimo BC Canada
but provided both got the best launch possible. the CVT in Manual mode, it shifts faster then the manual, and it's a closer ratio with the 6spd. it should spend more time in it's optimal power band
by the END of the 1/4 though cvt on paper should be able to cross the line neck and neck with the manual.
as for the powerbraking for the testing... it may seem more 'real world' to you.. but you KNOW no one is timing a 5spd leaving the line lugging at an idle... wouldn't seem fair to compare a manual leaving with some RPM to auto car that hasn't loaded up on the converter.
I'm used to racing in the 'under dog' car (88 tercel, 86 camry.. etc) so maybe I see things I little differently then others
BTW as for changing the CVT's 'manual' gears... I don't think that will be as simple as a computer programming change... from what I understand looking at the internal diagrams for how the CVT works.. the electronic part just moves a set of determined pressure gates within the trans to put specific pressure on each pulley and move them to their determined diameters.
don't want to rain on any parades.. I honestly hope it can be tuned with computer too.. but so far.. doesn't look like it
Last edited by Rabidhamster; Jun 28, 2007 at 01:35 PM.
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From: Cybertron
I tend to agree with the guys on, "what is your preference?" The manual is a good car on the spot tuning if you go that route. The CVT version has to be tested to figure out it's potential. Especially with the Lancer's version. Shock shift depends on the driver, if your good at manual, you won't have that shift shock. It will still be there but it is pending on how well of a shifter you are. The manual has it's disadvantages when it comes to heavy traffic areas, parking on hills, etc just because a manual is a manual. The CVT in my personal opinion is a great all-around car. You can go auto or psychofraudulent manual. (interesting description) The CVT is great on hills, in traffic with plenty of gas to burn. There is no additional power need to go uphills and it just flows like fluid. I love the manual transmission but the CVT or DSG is a great change of pace. You have that formula feeling blippin through 'gears'
For the manual, which is to me, for a person who needs 100% control of his/her car. Although the CVT gives you that feeling, but if you are familiar with CVT, this is not true. All the launchs that each gives, varies greatly with the manual at 7+sec and CVT's 8-9 sec. There is a difference in the timing, but manual has given the driver that type of control. And has the upper edge in this dept. But it's not to say that a CVT which is a mystery to all of us, (unless your a CVT specialist), has potential according to all the other cars on the market that are utilizing it.
So it's a great deal for everyone.
For the manual, which is to me, for a person who needs 100% control of his/her car. Although the CVT gives you that feeling, but if you are familiar with CVT, this is not true. All the launchs that each gives, varies greatly with the manual at 7+sec and CVT's 8-9 sec. There is a difference in the timing, but manual has given the driver that type of control. And has the upper edge in this dept. But it's not to say that a CVT which is a mystery to all of us, (unless your a CVT specialist), has potential according to all the other cars on the market that are utilizing it.
So it's a great deal for everyone.
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 219
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From: Phoenix, Arizona
the only negative thing i have heard aside from the exploding transmission speculation is that the gts can not launch as well as the 5speed. the only ways to fix that i know are ecu flashes and maybe* a turbo or intake/exhaust that adds good low end power.
from what i've read, the products out right now (rrm) help a little, but the car still suffers from a slow launch.
from what i've read, the products out right now (rrm) help a little, but the car still suffers from a slow launch.
Newbie
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 43
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well if the only reason your worried about a 5 speed is the shift shock.
You shouldnt even get a lancer
given the hard sport suspension and the 18inch wheels.
Road noise and harsh bumps from the road can be felt all the time.
u should get a family sedan if you want a comfortable ride. The lancer is not comfortable noise and suspension wise. driving on the highway its noisy, the engine is very loud especially past the 4400rpm area.
The shift shock should be the least of your worries. When a manual driver is not trying to go fast, it would be hard to tell hes shifting unless you concentrate. And at that point why would u even bother with the road noise and harsh suspension on top of it.
I really dont think shift shock is a problem at all with this car. Especially since it has such a short and light clutch. It is sooo easy to clutch it, and its very forgiving. Easy to smooth shiftly.
It makes it easier to drive in heavy traffic. Its only a small 2 Litre, so the clutch isnt that heavy either.
The only thing that should keep u from getting a manual i feel, is that if you are in heavy traffic. Or dont want to be bothered shifting into gears back and forth.
All in all i repeated this before, but pushing buttons is not close to a real manual transmission. Its not even remotely. Its more like a video game, where i can shift up and down all i want just by pushing buttons, Oh its redlining push the x button on my ps3 controller. Thats teh feeling i felt when i test drived the CVT.
But again its totally my opinion.
You shouldnt even get a lancer
given the hard sport suspension and the 18inch wheels.
Road noise and harsh bumps from the road can be felt all the time.
u should get a family sedan if you want a comfortable ride. The lancer is not comfortable noise and suspension wise. driving on the highway its noisy, the engine is very loud especially past the 4400rpm area.
The shift shock should be the least of your worries. When a manual driver is not trying to go fast, it would be hard to tell hes shifting unless you concentrate. And at that point why would u even bother with the road noise and harsh suspension on top of it.
I really dont think shift shock is a problem at all with this car. Especially since it has such a short and light clutch. It is sooo easy to clutch it, and its very forgiving. Easy to smooth shiftly.
It makes it easier to drive in heavy traffic. Its only a small 2 Litre, so the clutch isnt that heavy either.
The only thing that should keep u from getting a manual i feel, is that if you are in heavy traffic. Or dont want to be bothered shifting into gears back and forth.
All in all i repeated this before, but pushing buttons is not close to a real manual transmission. Its not even remotely. Its more like a video game, where i can shift up and down all i want just by pushing buttons, Oh its redlining push the x button on my ps3 controller. Thats teh feeling i felt when i test drived the CVT.
But again its totally my opinion.
Newbie
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 67
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From: Long Island & Massachusetts
Im going manual for my GTS which im ordering this week. Trading in my automatic golf, thank you lord!!! I just cant stand automatic anymore and to me a CVT is just a complicated automatic thats a little smoother. I test drove a CVT becuase thats all they had on the lot at the time and it was cool having the paddle shifters but as leomon said it was just too much videogame feeling to me. I feel like they just used the CVT to bring in more buyers not because it was faster. Just my personal opinion though, dont hurt me.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 132
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From: Nanaimo BC Canada
yeah I'm gonna test drive a CVT before I make my final choice/order... I test drove the 5spd
honestly it'll be a daily commuter (like most others here).. but I'll be racing AutoX and TSD road rally... so launching isn't that big an issue for me.. the very quick shifts and basically no chance of missing a shift are key
so I think personally I'm leaning towards the CVT .. but there is no love lost here for the manual.. infact I quite enjoyed driving it.. however from a performance stand point I found the shift throw a hair long, and a little mushy.. but I didn't expect anything stellar from it
honestly it'll be a daily commuter (like most others here).. but I'll be racing AutoX and TSD road rally... so launching isn't that big an issue for me.. the very quick shifts and basically no chance of missing a shift are key
so I think personally I'm leaning towards the CVT .. but there is no love lost here for the manual.. infact I quite enjoyed driving it.. however from a performance stand point I found the shift throw a hair long, and a little mushy.. but I didn't expect anything stellar from it
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From: Cybertron
As I said, it depends on your preference. The shift shock is not on top of what is important, but more like the understanding of the amount of effort that is required. If there is a shift shock, that means that there is possibility of lost time; hence the reason why CVT(fake DSG) was introduced. And yes, it is a marketing strategy to get more buyers, in which it worked. But, the debate can go on and on about what is better. Naturally, manual shifter fans are going to root for the manual. What makes a manual shifter want to go the CVT way? I test drove the manual, and I was like ok. Typical. CVT for me was a refreshing change. I would prefer the DSG over the CVT, but for the Lancer, which is based on more on economy then high end performance, I was satisfied with my purchase. Thank goodness for hands free Blue Tooth.
Last edited by chino ali; Jul 9, 2007 at 06:20 PM.
Newbie
Joined: May 2007
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I dont mean to flame or whatever and i dont think i am but just in case...
How is CVT more economical?
Maybe im missin smth
Two kinds of people by manual transmissions
Poor people and driver enthusiasts.
U paid 1500$ upfront on the CVT.
I probably wont replace my clutch until 8-10 years down the road.
and thats probably from 800-1000$
CVT saves at the mosy .1 L/100km
And that only depends how much time u spend in 6th gear when your driving.
Again a manual is a manual, its not like its gonna change alot from car to car.
But i agree a CVT is a nice change from an auto more buttons and toys to play with. Keep you occupied from just gassing and brakeing all day hehe
How is CVT more economical?
Maybe im missin smth
Two kinds of people by manual transmissions
Poor people and driver enthusiasts.
U paid 1500$ upfront on the CVT.
I probably wont replace my clutch until 8-10 years down the road.
and thats probably from 800-1000$
CVT saves at the mosy .1 L/100km
And that only depends how much time u spend in 6th gear when your driving.
Again a manual is a manual, its not like its gonna change alot from car to car.
But i agree a CVT is a nice change from an auto more buttons and toys to play with. Keep you occupied from just gassing and brakeing all day hehe
Evolved Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 858
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From: Cybertron
Simple.
Other mechanical transmissions only allow a few different discrete gear ratios to be selected, but the continuously variable transmission essentially has an infinite number of ratios available within a finite range, so it enables the relationship between the speed of a vehicle engine and the driven speed of the wheels to be selected within a continuous range. This can provide better fuel economy than other transmissions by enabling the engine to run at its most efficient speeds within a narrow range.
ahhh but your asking why is a CVT economical when you have to spend over a grand on it. I asked myself the same question.
Why is that some greencars are more expensive the their standard brothers?Why is more expensive to eat healthier?
You spend more money to save more money.
The technology is but limited and until it is plentiful, it's going to cost more.
Like today's space ticket to the moon.
Yep that's me. Chino; a walking contradiction.
<--(It's the Amercan way, dammit!)
Other mechanical transmissions only allow a few different discrete gear ratios to be selected, but the continuously variable transmission essentially has an infinite number of ratios available within a finite range, so it enables the relationship between the speed of a vehicle engine and the driven speed of the wheels to be selected within a continuous range. This can provide better fuel economy than other transmissions by enabling the engine to run at its most efficient speeds within a narrow range.
ahhh but your asking why is a CVT economical when you have to spend over a grand on it. I asked myself the same question.
Why is that some greencars are more expensive the their standard brothers?Why is more expensive to eat healthier?
You spend more money to save more money.
The technology is but limited and until it is plentiful, it's going to cost more.
Like today's space ticket to the moon.
Yep that's me. Chino; a walking contradiction.
<--(It's the Amercan way, dammit!)
Last edited by chino ali; Jul 4, 2007 at 11:59 AM.