Evo X vs. Evo VIII and IX
I agree the OP should not have posted this here being he is not driving an X. It is a bit odd and should probably be putting this in motorsports as a general comment about any car.
The evo X, or any JDM evo with AYC is actually easier to get around faster than the non AYC cars. This is not to say the the AYC cars are inherently faster, just easier to drive. The OP should be directing it to all that have fast cars.
Also, the X vs non X thing is getting old. Both are great cars and I would gladly have any of them. Given the option, I would take a 6.5TME, evo 9 MR, AND evo X MR. On any given day, anyone of those good by the fastest, and anyone of those could get beat by a really skilled driver in a miata
The evo X, or any JDM evo with AYC is actually easier to get around faster than the non AYC cars. This is not to say the the AYC cars are inherently faster, just easier to drive. The OP should be directing it to all that have fast cars.
Also, the X vs non X thing is getting old. Both are great cars and I would gladly have any of them. Given the option, I would take a 6.5TME, evo 9 MR, AND evo X MR. On any given day, anyone of those good by the fastest, and anyone of those could get beat by a really skilled driver in a miata
This thread has been a great source of entertainment. The pictures are classic, and very belly laugh inducing.
I think, because of previous posts by the OP, you guys are being a little hard on the guy. Yes, he has been vocal about the X, but bashing everything he puts up is really not making any of you a better internet poster then he. I think we can all agree that some of us may be over reacting to statements here, and we should all just take a deep breath and relax for a minute.
I am with CharlesJ on this. Though I dont think it makes complete sense for this to be posted specific to the X, I can see the logical correlation. Regardless of the intentions of the OP, there are definitely a lot of lessons to be had at a HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education) event. Not only will these types of events give you more respect for your vehicle, but you will also learn a lot of valuable lessons that will apply to everyday driving. Personally, I think everyone that gets a new car should immediately go to some place safe, and find out what happens when the car loses traction. The best thing you can ever do as a driver is be prepared for any event, and knowing what it feels like just before you car loses control, so you can make adjustments, is incredibly valuable.
And what CharlesJ says about the Miata's is so true. Sure, you may be able to pull on them in a straight line, but damn they stick in the corners.
I think, because of previous posts by the OP, you guys are being a little hard on the guy. Yes, he has been vocal about the X, but bashing everything he puts up is really not making any of you a better internet poster then he. I think we can all agree that some of us may be over reacting to statements here, and we should all just take a deep breath and relax for a minute.
I am with CharlesJ on this. Though I dont think it makes complete sense for this to be posted specific to the X, I can see the logical correlation. Regardless of the intentions of the OP, there are definitely a lot of lessons to be had at a HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education) event. Not only will these types of events give you more respect for your vehicle, but you will also learn a lot of valuable lessons that will apply to everyday driving. Personally, I think everyone that gets a new car should immediately go to some place safe, and find out what happens when the car loses traction. The best thing you can ever do as a driver is be prepared for any event, and knowing what it feels like just before you car loses control, so you can make adjustments, is incredibly valuable.
And what CharlesJ says about the Miata's is so true. Sure, you may be able to pull on them in a straight line, but damn they stick in the corners.
This thread has been a great source of entertainment. The pictures are classic, and very belly laugh inducing.
I think, because of previous posts by the OP, you guys are being a little hard on the guy. Yes, he has been vocal about the X, but bashing everything he puts up is really not making any of you a better internet poster then he. I think we can all agree that some of us may be over reacting to statements here, and we should all just take a deep breath and relax for a minute.
I am with CharlesJ on this. Though I dont think it makes complete sense for this to be posted specific to the X, I can see the logical correlation. Regardless of the intentions of the OP, there are definitely a lot of lessons to be had at a HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education) event. Not only will these types of events give you more respect for your vehicle, but you will also learn a lot of valuable lessons that will apply to everyday driving. Personally, I think everyone that gets a new car should immediately go to some place safe, and find out what happens when the car loses traction. The best thing you can ever do as a driver is be prepared for any event, and knowing what it feels like just before you car loses control, so you can make adjustments, is incredibly valuable.
And what CharlesJ says about the Miata's is so true. Sure, you may be able to pull on them in a straight line, but damn they stick in the corners.
I think, because of previous posts by the OP, you guys are being a little hard on the guy. Yes, he has been vocal about the X, but bashing everything he puts up is really not making any of you a better internet poster then he. I think we can all agree that some of us may be over reacting to statements here, and we should all just take a deep breath and relax for a minute.
I am with CharlesJ on this. Though I dont think it makes complete sense for this to be posted specific to the X, I can see the logical correlation. Regardless of the intentions of the OP, there are definitely a lot of lessons to be had at a HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education) event. Not only will these types of events give you more respect for your vehicle, but you will also learn a lot of valuable lessons that will apply to everyday driving. Personally, I think everyone that gets a new car should immediately go to some place safe, and find out what happens when the car loses traction. The best thing you can ever do as a driver is be prepared for any event, and knowing what it feels like just before you car loses control, so you can make adjustments, is incredibly valuable.
And what CharlesJ says about the Miata's is so true. Sure, you may be able to pull on them in a straight line, but damn they stick in the corners.
Thanks for looking at my post as it was originally intended!!
Evolved Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,849
Likes: 1
From: USA
There is no substitute for a good driver, period. I had my STi at the track several times as well as many auto X events. The first time I ran an auto cross I thought I was going to dominate and instead, I got my *** handed to me by much slower cars. A 2.5 rs suby beat me for christs sake. However, by the end of the day, I beat his time by more than 3 seconds. The next month on the same course I beat my own time by another 4 seconds, which just shows how slow I was still running despite my improvements. Finally I started to come in the top 10 times in street modified aftr about a month and a half of practice. The road race course at second creek raceway in colorado went the same way but with a much faster learning curve thanks to my auto x experience. Boostez you are very right in that there is no substitute for seat time, but this applies to all people and cars and not just the X. The biggest thing with the X is not so much that it corrects your mistakes, at least when asc is turned off, but that it has such excellent balance and grip. No understeer, easy to control oversteer, and an overall confidence inspiring ride that even the 8's and 9's don't give. There is an awesome road near my house that I love to run my X on, and my buddy with the evo 8 came up and we took some back to back runs comparing the two. The 8 definitely feels more like a racecar like someone else mentioned above, but the X is more poised and capable. We compared the entry and exit speeds of one turn imparticular, and the evo 8 would start to understeer and squirm back and forth trying to maintain traction whereas my X would hold the line clean with perfect balance going about 5 miles an hour faster than the 8. I wasn't even at the limits, but I was approaching them and on the streets that's as far as I would go. Long story short, fast lap times will always be in large part accredited to the driver, but when comparing two equally skilled drivers, the X is faster aroud the turns. Period, end of story.
Newbie
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
hmm..very thought provoking thread in some ways. Maybe this is not what the OP intended, but I think the EVO X (and other comparable AWD cars w/ fancy electronics) is not really such a good choice if it's the first car you take out to the track.
Note that I have a GSR X, and took it out to the track last Fri at Streets of Willow. It prob was my 12th track day or so, but first time with an awd car. prior I first drove a fwd vw passat, a eg civic, and a miata on the same exact track. They were all relatively underpowered, and in the passat's case, not particularly good at anything. All 3 gave me a good sense of what I could or could not do with a fwd/rwd car. you had to be patient and really learn to drive well. I wasn't particularly fast, but I improved my driving a lot.
The X is in someways the exact opposite and too forgiving. Everything compensates. It's almost like I don't even have to drive smooth. I think its going to be difficult to learn to really drive well if the X is your first car you take to the track. It's almost like throwing R-compounds on.
Add to the fact that the X's limits are not easy to learn. The AWD system, as good as it is, was in some ways still something that was difficult for me at least to get used to. It's a car that will cover a lot of mistakes, but I also think it's one that is difficult to drive really well. That, or at least the driving style needed to extract the most from the X is totally different from a rwd or fwd car.
Note that I have a GSR X, and took it out to the track last Fri at Streets of Willow. It prob was my 12th track day or so, but first time with an awd car. prior I first drove a fwd vw passat, a eg civic, and a miata on the same exact track. They were all relatively underpowered, and in the passat's case, not particularly good at anything. All 3 gave me a good sense of what I could or could not do with a fwd/rwd car. you had to be patient and really learn to drive well. I wasn't particularly fast, but I improved my driving a lot.
The X is in someways the exact opposite and too forgiving. Everything compensates. It's almost like I don't even have to drive smooth. I think its going to be difficult to learn to really drive well if the X is your first car you take to the track. It's almost like throwing R-compounds on.
Add to the fact that the X's limits are not easy to learn. The AWD system, as good as it is, was in some ways still something that was difficult for me at least to get used to. It's a car that will cover a lot of mistakes, but I also think it's one that is difficult to drive really well. That, or at least the driving style needed to extract the most from the X is totally different from a rwd or fwd car.
hmm..very thought provoking thread in some ways. Maybe this is not what the OP intended, but I think the EVO X (and other comparable AWD cars w/ fancy electronics) is not really such a good choice if it's the first car you take out to the track.
Note that I have a GSR X, and took it out to the track last Fri at Streets of Willow. It prob was my 12th track day or so, but first time with an awd car. prior I first drove a fwd vw passat, a eg civic, and a miata on the same exact track. They were all relatively underpowered, and in the passat's case, not particularly good at anything. All 3 gave me a good sense of what I could or could not do with a fwd/rwd car. you had to be patient and really learn to drive well. I wasn't particularly fast, but I improved my driving a lot.
The X is in someways the exact opposite and too forgiving. Everything compensates. It's almost like I don't even have to drive smooth. I think its going to be difficult to learn to really drive well if the X is your first car you take to the track. It's almost like throwing R-compounds on.
Add to the fact that the X's limits are not easy to learn. The AWD system, as good as it is, was in some ways still something that was difficult for me at least to get used to. It's a car that will cover a lot of mistakes, but I also think it's one that is difficult to drive really well. That, or at least the driving style needed to extract the most from the X is totally different from a rwd or fwd car.
Note that I have a GSR X, and took it out to the track last Fri at Streets of Willow. It prob was my 12th track day or so, but first time with an awd car. prior I first drove a fwd vw passat, a eg civic, and a miata on the same exact track. They were all relatively underpowered, and in the passat's case, not particularly good at anything. All 3 gave me a good sense of what I could or could not do with a fwd/rwd car. you had to be patient and really learn to drive well. I wasn't particularly fast, but I improved my driving a lot.
The X is in someways the exact opposite and too forgiving. Everything compensates. It's almost like I don't even have to drive smooth. I think its going to be difficult to learn to really drive well if the X is your first car you take to the track. It's almost like throwing R-compounds on.
Add to the fact that the X's limits are not easy to learn. The AWD system, as good as it is, was in some ways still something that was difficult for me at least to get used to. It's a car that will cover a lot of mistakes, but I also think it's one that is difficult to drive really well. That, or at least the driving style needed to extract the most from the X is totally different from a rwd or fwd car.
Good analysis. I think you can be faster quicker in an X being it helps you so much, but ultimately will not learn as much. Best to start in something underpowered without electronics. Something basic. An old miata is a great one. Moving into AWD, a basic previous generation evo will also help. Turning off as much of the evo Xs electronics as you can may also help although that AYC is always there. This is really suggestions for serious track goers. For people that just want to go out and have fun, the X is perfectly fine and wont punish you so hard for mistakes. I will say, after spending so much time in AWDs, I am a bit nervous to go out to Sebring in a 911 which I am about to do.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento
All:
A lot of newbie X owners have this misconception that because the car handles excellently in a slalom that they will be able to PWN every car on the road course if/when they ever attend one. I just want to tell those guys a little story:
I had the opportunity to attend an all-day track course at Streets of Willow in LA 2 years ago. This was going to be my first experience driving on a road course. I was excited to lay the smackdown on the other cars that would attend. I had some friends that had S2000s, 240SXs, Elises, M3s, 996s, RX8s, and even older non-turbo RX7s. I thought "It was going to be lovely flying past these cats because most of them didn't have AWD!!!"
I had lowered my car, put on an adjustable anti-sway bar, got MR rims, RT-615 tires and a wheel alignment. I thought I was ready..
Got to the track and attended the classroom session. I eagerly waited for the instructor to give out all the safety rules, and we were off to start our first pass.
I got in my car, and started the roll along coast to get on the track. Punching it when the lane was clear, I quickly tried to catch people. It wasn't until I was putting my hand out for almost EVERY car to pass me that I realized that the EVO isn't so badass like I thought. I came in assuming that I needed very little driving skill and that the EVO's handling would correct all my mistakes and keep me on the road. Sadly, that was NOT the case.
I came from that all day course hating road racing. I got spanked by most of the newbies out there with the same skill level and hardly ANY of them had the sophisticated setup that I had. The 996 totally destroyed me and the Elise (my friend who had NEVER been at a RR before), non-turbo RX7, S2000 and BMW M3 completely destroyed me around turns too. In fact, the ONLY car out there that hit the dirt was ANOTHER EVO!!
I am sharing all this because I know some newbie evo X owners will think they have the baddest handling car on the market. Trust me, drivers with the older RWD cars can OWN you WITH your AYC, ASC, and AWD!
I plan to revisit this road racing experience, but this time I want to go back to traditional roots and LEARN to drive RWD.. I'll use my MR2 as a test bed.
In closing - "A car is only as fast as it's driver....."
-M
A lot of newbie X owners have this misconception that because the car handles excellently in a slalom that they will be able to PWN every car on the road course if/when they ever attend one. I just want to tell those guys a little story:
I had the opportunity to attend an all-day track course at Streets of Willow in LA 2 years ago. This was going to be my first experience driving on a road course. I was excited to lay the smackdown on the other cars that would attend. I had some friends that had S2000s, 240SXs, Elises, M3s, 996s, RX8s, and even older non-turbo RX7s. I thought "It was going to be lovely flying past these cats because most of them didn't have AWD!!!"
I had lowered my car, put on an adjustable anti-sway bar, got MR rims, RT-615 tires and a wheel alignment. I thought I was ready..
Got to the track and attended the classroom session. I eagerly waited for the instructor to give out all the safety rules, and we were off to start our first pass.
I got in my car, and started the roll along coast to get on the track. Punching it when the lane was clear, I quickly tried to catch people. It wasn't until I was putting my hand out for almost EVERY car to pass me that I realized that the EVO isn't so badass like I thought. I came in assuming that I needed very little driving skill and that the EVO's handling would correct all my mistakes and keep me on the road. Sadly, that was NOT the case.
I came from that all day course hating road racing. I got spanked by most of the newbies out there with the same skill level and hardly ANY of them had the sophisticated setup that I had. The 996 totally destroyed me and the Elise (my friend who had NEVER been at a RR before), non-turbo RX7, S2000 and BMW M3 completely destroyed me around turns too. In fact, the ONLY car out there that hit the dirt was ANOTHER EVO!!
I am sharing all this because I know some newbie evo X owners will think they have the baddest handling car on the market. Trust me, drivers with the older RWD cars can OWN you WITH your AYC, ASC, and AWD!
I plan to revisit this road racing experience, but this time I want to go back to traditional roots and LEARN to drive RWD.. I'll use my MR2 as a test bed.
In closing - "A car is only as fast as it's driver....."
-M
Wow this tread has gotten out of hand!
Yes it is true that there is no replacement for seat time. But they way you are comparing is noob track drivers compared to mutiyear experienced track drivers. Every one knows that a person with more track experience is going to better than someone who has no track experience at all. But its a different story when you drive 2 differnt cars on the track. For example driving a ford fisteva you will get lower lap times as you would if you drove an evo and evo. Hense the evo is alot faster on the track than a ford festeva. Comparing the evo 8 and the evo X, there will be very little differnce for a person that is driving on the track for the first time. But every little bit helps a person drive faster. With ayc the car will understeer less compare to the evo 8 without ayc. which means that a person can drive the car harder into the corners with out spinning out. Therefore making the EVO X a better handling car. The more experience you are with your car, the better lap times you will get. AWD and AYC is not going to make you the best driver in the world but it will sure help you become a better driver. There is civics that are faster than AWD and rear wheel drive cars out there. Go look at Modified Mag september 2007. 91 Honda civic post lap time of 58.784 seconds. Robispec evo 8 post 58.926 and Trac G35 post 1:02.489. The civic was the fastest time of the day, beating the g35, evos, sti, s2000, skylines. Does that mean that the civic is one of the best handling cars? I will leave that for you to decied.
Yes it is true that there is no replacement for seat time. But they way you are comparing is noob track drivers compared to mutiyear experienced track drivers. Every one knows that a person with more track experience is going to better than someone who has no track experience at all. But its a different story when you drive 2 differnt cars on the track. For example driving a ford fisteva you will get lower lap times as you would if you drove an evo and evo. Hense the evo is alot faster on the track than a ford festeva. Comparing the evo 8 and the evo X, there will be very little differnce for a person that is driving on the track for the first time. But every little bit helps a person drive faster. With ayc the car will understeer less compare to the evo 8 without ayc. which means that a person can drive the car harder into the corners with out spinning out. Therefore making the EVO X a better handling car. The more experience you are with your car, the better lap times you will get. AWD and AYC is not going to make you the best driver in the world but it will sure help you become a better driver. There is civics that are faster than AWD and rear wheel drive cars out there. Go look at Modified Mag september 2007. 91 Honda civic post lap time of 58.784 seconds. Robispec evo 8 post 58.926 and Trac G35 post 1:02.489. The civic was the fastest time of the day, beating the g35, evos, sti, s2000, skylines. Does that mean that the civic is one of the best handling cars? I will leave that for you to decied.
Good analysis. I think you can be faster quicker in an X being it helps you so much, but ultimately will not learn as much. Best to start in something underpowered without electronics. Something basic. An old miata is a great one. Moving into AWD, a basic previous generation evo will also help. Turning off as much of the evo Xs electronics as you can may also help although that AYC is always there. This is really suggestions for serious track goers. For people that just want to go out and have fun, the X is perfectly fine and wont punish you so hard for mistakes. I will say, after spending so much time in AWDs, I am a bit nervous to go out to Sebring in a 911 which I am about to do.
I'm quite offended at the way the Mods are handling my discussions and comments. It's at the point where now I can ONLY post in this thread.
Everyone who doesn't take what I say for face value and reads into it as a means of trying to put down the X (when that's not my intention) is getting old. I didn't get ANY positive feedback from the Mods for posting my exterior impressions (which were quite positive). That just got unnoticed and quickly pushed down the stack of new threads.. It's almost not even worth posting in the X forums any more ..
Everyone who doesn't take what I say for face value and reads into it as a means of trying to put down the X (when that's not my intention) is getting old. I didn't get ANY positive feedback from the Mods for posting my exterior impressions (which were quite positive). That just got unnoticed and quickly pushed down the stack of new threads.. It's almost not even worth posting in the X forums any more ..
Last edited by BOOSTEZ; Mar 7, 2008 at 05:16 PM.
Newbie
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
Go look at Modified Mag september 2007. 91 Honda civic post lap time of 58.784 seconds. Robispec evo 8 post 58.926 and Trac G35 post 1:02.489. The civic was the fastest time of the day, beating the g35, evos, sti, s2000, skylines. Does that mean that the civic is one of the best handling cars? I will leave that for you to decied.
It wasn't until my 4th run at the 'Streets of Willow' with my gsr x, that I beat the lap time of my civic (with no alignment or engine tuning no less) of 1.39.86. It was nothing to write home about, but I don't think it was too bad given it was also the first time i brought the civic out to the track.
next time I will bring out the 240sx, haha!
Last edited by ronmcdon; Mar 7, 2008 at 05:59 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 356
Likes: 2
From: Actionville, FL
You are not kidding Charles. I actually do NOT enjoy driving RWD cars around the track anymore, regardless of their power. In the RWD cars, I am also nervous that I am going to spin that rear end, and bumps make me incredibly nervous, as the rear ends really like to come loose in the RWD cars. Hence the term "Porsche Bumps" at our track. A place aptly names because the RWD cars would go over this section, and spin out because the tiny bumps would unsettle the rear end. Something that never bothers me in the AWD cars, since we have more then just the back wheels driving the car.
Newbie
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
I'm quite offended at the way the Mods are handling my discussions and comments. It's at the point where now I can ONLY post in this thread.
Everyone who doesn't take what I say for face value and reads into it as a means of trying to put down the X (when that's not my intention) is getting old. I didn't get ANY positive feedback from the Mods for posting my exterior impressions (which were quite positive). That just got unnoticed and quickly pushed down the stack of new threads.. It's almost not even worth posting in the X forums any more ..
Everyone who doesn't take what I say for face value and reads into it as a means of trying to put down the X (when that's not my intention) is getting old. I didn't get ANY positive feedback from the Mods for posting my exterior impressions (which were quite positive). That just got unnoticed and quickly pushed down the stack of new threads.. It's almost not even worth posting in the X forums any more ..
I think your focus at the time should have been more about just learning to drive well. sometimes when I drive on the track, if I pay too much attention to passing other ppl (or getting away from those behind me) I will lose focus and get even slower lap times.