Focus RS
Apr 18, 2015, 06:54 AM
#601
Street class is for stock to lightly modified cars. http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...%20online1.pdf
Literally tons of people come out to autox just for fun and have little to no modifications on their cars. If they get hooked, they likely start down the mod path until they hit the ceiling of what mods can be done for a given class.
Add in that lots of people will not want to void the warranty on their brand new Focus RS or Civic Type R and it brings this debate into even sharper focus.
I get that we are all fans of awd, but IF the Focus RS is slower around a track than the Civic Type R in stock form, then Ford has most definitely come up short imo.
Literally tons of people come out to autox just for fun and have little to no modifications on their cars. If they get hooked, they likely start down the mod path until they hit the ceiling of what mods can be done for a given class.
Add in that lots of people will not want to void the warranty on their brand new Focus RS or Civic Type R and it brings this debate into even sharper focus.
I get that we are all fans of awd, but IF the Focus RS is slower around a track than the Civic Type R in stock form, then Ford has most definitely come up short imo.
Last edited by nemsin; Apr 18, 2015 at 06:57 AM.
Apr 19, 2015, 12:53 PM
#603
Back to my original point about the times bone stock cars run at Nürburgring.
I think it matters little for 3 reasons:
1. You are good enough of a driver to get anywhere near that lap speed.
Hence you bought that car to race, probably a lot, and will mod it as far as allowed,
even in the stock class (which is quite a bit it seems). Otherwise you just will not
be competitive, as others will mod their cars with cubic dollars.
2. You bought it to get your feet wet in mild parking lot auto-X or some other
slow speed event. What it ran at the ring has so little bearing on what the car will
do with the "driver mod" being so inferior. Even then, by your 3rd event, you will
have different pads and probably tires, so not bone stock in 2 very significant ways.
3. You bought the car for the street, in which case you either can't push it anywhere
in the US legally like you would at the ring and/or you bought a non AWD, in which case
there are so many scenarios you will not get the performance from a 2WD (either end)
you might on a perfect day/surface of a race track.
I think it matters little for 3 reasons:
1. You are good enough of a driver to get anywhere near that lap speed.
Hence you bought that car to race, probably a lot, and will mod it as far as allowed,
even in the stock class (which is quite a bit it seems). Otherwise you just will not
be competitive, as others will mod their cars with cubic dollars.
2. You bought it to get your feet wet in mild parking lot auto-X or some other
slow speed event. What it ran at the ring has so little bearing on what the car will
do with the "driver mod" being so inferior. Even then, by your 3rd event, you will
have different pads and probably tires, so not bone stock in 2 very significant ways.
3. You bought the car for the street, in which case you either can't push it anywhere
in the US legally like you would at the ring and/or you bought a non AWD, in which case
there are so many scenarios you will not get the performance from a 2WD (either end)
you might on a perfect day/surface of a race track.
Last edited by OX; Apr 19, 2015 at 12:56 PM.
Apr 19, 2015, 08:21 PM
#604
So then **** BONE STOCK*****, except for
tires
wheels
shocks/struts
spring perches
bump stops
brake pads
sway bars
aligment specs
air filter
engine bore
cat back exh
cat converter (if out of warantee).
These are the same companies that won't honor warantee
and cry "abuse" from even spirited street use? Good luck
tracking a car (in any class) several times and getting any warantee.
Remains to be seen once production civic comes out, but since I'll never see one in US,
who really cares. And if it was a bone stock production car or just kinda close like the "stock"
class above.
And yes, sine it rains or snows pretty much one out of every 3 days here (not
too mention sand washing onto the roads quit often from living in the jersey pine
barons), AWD still rules on the street.
tires
wheels
shocks/struts
spring perches
bump stops
brake pads
sway bars
aligment specs
air filter
engine bore
cat back exh
cat converter (if out of warantee).
These are the same companies that won't honor warantee
and cry "abuse" from even spirited street use? Good luck
tracking a car (in any class) several times and getting any warantee.
Remains to be seen once production civic comes out, but since I'll never see one in US,
who really cares. And if it was a bone stock production car or just kinda close like the "stock"
class above.
And yes, sine it rains or snows pretty much one out of every 3 days here (not
too mention sand washing onto the roads quit often from living in the jersey pine
barons), AWD still rules on the street.
I live in Canada. That means snow. I think AWD is overrated. Don't get me wrong, I like it. I can be lazy with AWD. But I wouldn't turn down a FWD or RWD car simply because of the drivetrain.
Apr 20, 2015, 02:21 AM
#605
Not even talking snow (although once it gets much below 50, those nice sticky summer tires that many 2WD's get such great performance out of are like being on ice). You can put a high perf all season on the EVO and still pull a mid-high 1.7 60'.
I did it all day long on my talon with some pretty crappy tires and a good clutch.
I have driven no 2WD car that pulls as hard in the rain a my EVO. Rain on 2 of the next 5 days, there is zero point driving my 14 stang with a 295 rear sticky tire on those days.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/jac...recast/2288862
Add in piles of road salt, sand washed roads from lack of curbs or multiple quarries near me where trucks dump stuff all over, animal parts scattered here and there.
Last edited by OX; Apr 20, 2015 at 02:45 AM.
Apr 20, 2015, 11:37 AM
#606
http://www.torquenews.com/1574/break...ased-euro-spec
Not even talking snow (although once it gets much below 50, those nice sticky summer tires that many 2WD's get such great performance out of are like being on ice). You can put a high perf all season on the EVO and still pull a mid-high 1.7 60'.
I did it all day long on my talon with some pretty crappy tires and a good clutch.
I have driven no 2WD car that pulls as hard in the rain a my EVO. Rain on 2 of the next 5 days, there is zero point driving my 14 stang with a 295 rear sticky tire on those days.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/jac...recast/2288862
Add in piles of road salt, sand washed roads from lack of curbs or multiple quarries near me where trucks dump stuff all over, animal parts scattered here and there.
Not even talking snow (although once it gets much below 50, those nice sticky summer tires that many 2WD's get such great performance out of are like being on ice). You can put a high perf all season on the EVO and still pull a mid-high 1.7 60'.
I did it all day long on my talon with some pretty crappy tires and a good clutch.
I have driven no 2WD car that pulls as hard in the rain a my EVO. Rain on 2 of the next 5 days, there is zero point driving my 14 stang with a 295 rear sticky tire on those days.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/jac...recast/2288862
Add in piles of road salt, sand washed roads from lack of curbs or multiple quarries near me where trucks dump stuff all over, animal parts scattered here and there.
I've never been inclined to do hard pulls in the pouring rain. That must be a very unique and focused racing class.
Apr 21, 2015, 12:13 AM
#608
It's the same with AWD cars. The stock tires on the Evo would be useless here. Nobody with half a brain would attempt to drive an Evo during the winter on the stock summer tires. Many have tried, and they have all failed and bought winter tires. The same is true of the stock STI tires. I don't know any STI owners that drive their cars in the winter here with the stock tires. Whether you're AWD, FWD or RWD, you need winter tires here.
I've never been inclined to do hard pulls in the pouring rain. That must be a very unique and focused racing class.
I've never been inclined to do hard pulls in the pouring rain. That must be a very unique and focused racing class.
And just because you don't drive hard in the rain, does not mean
an AWD car won't destroy any 2WD in the rain on the street.
And you don't race in the rain either, why not?
What if it Rains?
Autocross is a rain or shine sport, the only thing that shuts an event down is lightning in the area. For rain days plan to bring some plastic bins to keep your stuff dry, a towel to dry off hands and feet before driving and something to protect you from the elements. An umbrella does ok, a poncho is a little better, but the seasoned competitors will all be in full rain suits. A rain suit can be had for under $100, and will provide you with many years of service and comfort.
http://www.sccastartingline.com/resources.php
Apr 21, 2015, 07:37 AM
#609
Personally, I place dry weather performance over rain and snow. Why? Because I am not brave/crazy/stupid enough to race in the rain and snow. Driving at or near the edge of grip in poor weather is just not my idea of fun. I value my life and my car too much for that.
For me, how the Focus RS compares to the Type R in the dry is the most important question. If the Focus RS ends up being slower in the dry, the question becomes why is it slower?
With awd, more hp, and sticky tires the Focus RS "should" have the advantage. But I don't think any of us expect that the Focus RS will get anywhere near a Type R's 7:50 Nürburgring lap time.
So if it does end up being slower at the ring, is it because of the weight, brakes, suspension, or the chassis itself?
For me, how the Focus RS compares to the Type R in the dry is the most important question. If the Focus RS ends up being slower in the dry, the question becomes why is it slower?
With awd, more hp, and sticky tires the Focus RS "should" have the advantage. But I don't think any of us expect that the Focus RS will get anywhere near a Type R's 7:50 Nürburgring lap time.
So if it does end up being slower at the ring, is it because of the weight, brakes, suspension, or the chassis itself?
Apr 21, 2015, 09:04 AM
#610
Hence why I said "I'm not even talking snow"
And just because you don't drive hard in the rain, does not mean
an AWD car won't destroy any 2WD in the rain on the street.
And you don't race in the rain either, why not?
What if it Rains?
Autocross is a rain or shine sport, the only thing that shuts an event down is lightning in the area. For rain days plan to bring some plastic bins to keep your stuff dry, a towel to dry off hands and feet before driving and something to protect you from the elements. An umbrella does ok, a poncho is a little better, but the seasoned competitors will all be in full rain suits. A rain suit can be had for under $100, and will provide you with many years of service and comfort.
http://www.sccastartingline.com/resources.php
And just because you don't drive hard in the rain, does not mean
an AWD car won't destroy any 2WD in the rain on the street.
And you don't race in the rain either, why not?
What if it Rains?
Autocross is a rain or shine sport, the only thing that shuts an event down is lightning in the area. For rain days plan to bring some plastic bins to keep your stuff dry, a towel to dry off hands and feet before driving and something to protect you from the elements. An umbrella does ok, a poncho is a little better, but the seasoned competitors will all be in full rain suits. A rain suit can be had for under $100, and will provide you with many years of service and comfort.
http://www.sccastartingline.com/resources.php
I do real racing in the rain. Not hard pulls on the street to show the guy in the Civic Type R who has the smallest ***** in town. I don't buy a car for the few days where that's an issue.
Apr 21, 2015, 09:51 AM
#612
Evolved Member
Since we seem to fascinated by irrelevant comparisons to race cars in here, a huge portion of purpose built race cars are using electric power steering these days so, it must not be inherently flawed.
I'd say it's mostly the way manufacturers "tune" the assist which may not be all bad because like anything else with mapping it means there's the possibility to change the feel with just software.
Apr 21, 2015, 10:06 AM
#613
A lot of car manufacturers have made big improvements in this area. I don't think I'd let Hyundai be the yardstick I measure the potential by.
Since we seem to fascinated by irrelevant comparisons to race cars in here, a huge portion of purpose built race cars are using electric power steering these days so, it must not be inherently flawed.
I'd say it's mostly the way manufacturers "tune" the assist which may not be all bad because like anything else with mapping it means there's the possibility to change the feel with just software.
Since we seem to fascinated by irrelevant comparisons to race cars in here, a huge portion of purpose built race cars are using electric power steering these days so, it must not be inherently flawed.
I'd say it's mostly the way manufacturers "tune" the assist which may not be all bad because like anything else with mapping it means there's the possibility to change the feel with just software.
Don't get me wrong I'm definitely excited to feel the car drive and handle. Really thinking about trading in the evo for one.
Doubt any dealer knows **** about it yet, but I wanna know when I can get on that list
Apr 21, 2015, 10:13 AM
#614
I really like the steering feel in my Fiesta ST, *for a electric assisted steering system*. It's still no Evo for sure but it's one of the better of the new gen. However, they still feel synthetic right off center. It's currently one of the drawbacks of the new systems.
My Golf R had crap for feel.
Apr 21, 2015, 10:15 AM
#615
Who cares about destroying a car on the street in the rain? That's such a minor "victory" that it's not a very good reason to restrict your car selection to only those possessing AWD.
I do real racing in the rain. Not hard pulls on the street to show the guy in the Civic Type R who has the smallest ***** in town. I don't buy a car for the few days where that's an issue.
I do real racing in the rain. Not hard pulls on the street to show the guy in the Civic Type R who has the smallest ***** in town. I don't buy a car for the few days where that's an issue.
And no one said anything about racing, destroying a 2WD from a performance standpoint. If you race in the rain, you already know why AWD is so important.
But grab that Civic if you want one, you know you'll be kicking yourself next time
the clouds roll over on race day.