Kekek - thanks for the diff review.

Hi Jack,

You finally going to mod that thing?

Compared to the Random cat there are 3 advantages:
- Less abrupt transition to and from the center core.
- 100 cell vs Random's 300 cell.
- Less cost.

5 of the STU national trophy winner's cars have one or are on hold for it, and that's not counting STX.
Let me know and I can bring one up for you next Sunday. Also looking at a bolt-in solution.

Rick

 

I think you hit the nail on the head there. The step up in mods (clutches/motor-mods/boost/update-backdate) and $$ between STU and BSP is pretty large. Also, a SP car is pretty much unstreetable with the $2k pucked clutches and silly go-cart passenger seats.

As far as RX8, after a year of campaigning one the only real advantage you have is weight and in order to really exploit that you have to run unbearably loud exhaust (the rotary uncorked makes an Evo sound like a Lexus) and remove the A/C. I for one thought was just too over the top for a car my wife has to daily drive. Yea they handle great and can run 275s but that just not enough to overcome its disadvantages. Also they are WAY down on power. Mine with STU mods still only dynoed at 138ftlbs of rwtq. Talk about having nothing coming out of the corners. At a Pro-solo it was just sad when you lined up against a STi as he would have a 1-2 second lead before the first turn.

STU seems like the prefect place to play for an Evo as you can do all the typical “street” mods and show up and run in a very competitive class.

 

Unstreetable? Not hardly. Even a good SM Evo is easily streetable. Have you ever checked out the top BSP Evos? The Showcase Evo is hardly unstreetable. The interior is stock besides having a Sparco Evo seat. The engine is just lightly modded.
Also, good twin disc clutches are easy to drive. No chatter, light pedal pressure. Even my wife enjoys driving my former SP..now SM Evo on the street

 

IMHO, the 03' Evo has only 1 disadvanatge that cannot be completely overcome by the driver and that is tight, low-speed corner exits. To avoid inside tire spin I am modulating the throttle and driving a slightly wider exit line.

If we keep the mindset to just asphalt courses similar to Heartland Park, then the hp/tq advantage of the newer 8/9, for the most part, is not usable. If the Evo's ACD was more like the STI's center diff, then that would certainly be an advantage, but today's ACD version lacks control on a high transitional AutoX course. Weight of the RS is, at best, a couple hundred pounds lighter when prepared to the rules. I would bet Rick in his 03' was the lightest ralley car in STU at Nat's this past year.

Regardless, Rick is right, there are going to be quite a few good drivers with decently prepared Evo 9's in the field this season. I personally know of 3 who moved from STS/STX to STU and they have won a few championships. If I'm not mistaken (speaking for Rick), Rick and I will try our (underdog/outdated) luck again this year. My decision to skip purchasing the 9 is based on the anticipated arrival of the X.

Dave

 

Make sure everyone who plans on running in any of the 4 ST classes, please read the thread on ECU/Emissions in ST. We need to voice our opinion to make sure the newer generation of drivers are represented when dictating rule changes. In summary, some want to abolish ECU tuning, some want to open it up. If you read Andy's reply's as the rules sit today, throwing a cell for changing a legal mod is subject to protest. Please read on:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/227759/ShowThread.aspx

Dave

 

I just started reading that thread and I agree that it is a must read for all ST competitors.

I'm by no means a motor head but my general feeling is that ECU tuning should be opened up. Especially with the '03's since our handicap seems to be the leaky stock plastic DV. The technology is readily available and inexpensive. How that effects emissions is another matter though. If you're defeating the O2 sensor then that's really not emissions legal, the rule definitely needs to be clarified. As to what, I'm not sure though...............

 

Funny you brought up that plastic CBV. Last year with the E9 on the same line in the rulebook I updated to the E9 CBV. I finally tested them a couple days ago. That plastic one is literally a piece of garbage. Here's how the test went.

E8 CBV
5-7 psi ---> Leaking Already!
22.5 psi --> Max pressure the valve would "hold"

E9 CBV
10 psi --> no leaking
15 psi --> no leaking
20 psi --> no leaking
23 psi --> begins leaking, barely audible
27 psi --> max pressure the valve would "hold"

I say "hold" because no matter the input pressure I gave 30, 40+ psi the valve would remain at 27 psi (E9) while leaking the excess pressure.

Silencer,
I also believe you have a good point about the excess power of the E9 on the asphalt. I wasn't able to get out to Nationals this year, but from what I heard grip levels were pretty low, on par with some of my least favorite lots here in the NE. I too will, hopefully, be dragging my 03 out for the 07 Pro Finale and Nationals against those pesky 9's.

John

 

My last CBV was the same way, I replaced it with a new one and it's better but I'm already counting down the days to where all I have to do is blow on it and it leaks............

 

Honestly I don't think clutches and flywheel make that big of an advantage on an auto-x course. STU still limits you to stock clutches and/or similars one with less clamping force. From my experience power is less important than handling and cornering speed. A lighter car with less power sometimes has a much bigger advantage, the ability to brake later, take corners faster adds up pretty quickly, especially on a race series that involves maintaining the highest possible speed through a series of corners. That is why the Honda S-2000s do so well in AS while lacking the corner exiting power of the EVO. Anyone who has driven a S2K knows what I'm talking about. Like wise the driver of an RX-8 in STU would have to throw the car into the corners with a higher speed than the EVOs and STis, while maintaining a higher average cornering speed ... AWD cars have always had the ability to exit out of a corner with more power but have to enter the corner much slower than the RWD brethren.

Ultimately it is the driver that makes the biggest difference in this sport. Sorry but I'm not one believes that all drivers show up with the same skill and are only losing to the competition because of the platform they are driving. The platform are definately different but that also means it is the drivers responsibility to use the strengths of that platform to his/her advantage.
Guess, I'll go check out that thread on SCCAFORUMS .... but from what I have heard from talking to some SCCA old timers and those who have a say in enforcing the rules, the opinions of those forums are just that opinions ...

 

Par on with the platic E8 CBV.

I tested at HPT during the Mid-West Divisional in August and ran the Pro Solo Finale and KS region practice event the Sunday before Nat's. I still had loose gremlins the first day of Nat's and threw away my first 2 runs trying to tighten up the suspension. The course is slippery overall but does have some nice grip patches where the pavement has been "modified".

Bring the 03', we will call it 'Team No-FLSD'.

Dave

 

Your point is very vaild when it comes to a local or regionally competitive car. It's a bit different at a Nationals level and thats the playing field I'm talking about. While the BSP cars are doing well right now none of them are preped to the farest extent of the rules and all it will take it one person to do so before every else has to respond. Look at DSP for example of how crazy it will get eventually. As far a SM, you can tell that none of the Evos are at the full preparedness yet as the BMWs are. Once these cars are build to that level I promise you very few people will drive them, and even want to, on a daily basis. That's my only point.

Here's the one factor that neutralizes that theory for STU; tires. R compounds are a nice crutch for a low-hp car as you can achieve those higher cornering speeds and take advantage of your suspension design. ST tires put you really on a more level playing ground as even with superior cornering ablities you just scrub too much speed with the lack of grip (as documented in testing with a DL-1). I think after running a STi for most of '05 and a RX8 for all of '06 in STU (and doing testing on both) I might have a somewhat real-world experince to share here even though I openly admit I'm a mid-pack driver right now.

 

But wouldn't running wider tires for the same compound tire with the lighter RWD platform give them more grip? All things being equal a bigger contact patch during cornering = more grip = higher cornering speed, right? Or are you saying the despite the contact patch, the amount of grip gained is not as significant?

 

The Showcase Evo won Nationals. They've actually won with two different Evos...in ESP and BSP. It is prepped about as far as you can to be legal in BSP. Take off the 185/30 r-comps and put on street tires and it is very streetable.
I agree that in SM there is room for improvement in prepping with the Evos. Even when fully prepped I still believe they'd be easily streetable...moreso than these mega hp Evo's running GT40-45r turbos on the street
Even a purpose built SM Evo will be somewhat mild in comparison to a lot of these drag race or Time Attack setups.
You are probably right about the "daily basis" point. When I think of streetable..I'm talking about a car that is just that...streetable. It would be an occassional driver on the street. Mine is only driven, on average, about 5000 miles a year right now. It's very very streetable though.

 

I agree, unfortunately there are some people willing to run carbon/carbon clutches/flywheels to shed weight or a different clutch that will allow an individual to shift faster and therefore help give that fraction of a second necessary FTW (supposedly).

 

The 30mm difference is more significant the more grip the tire has. You can definitely take advantage of it more with R compounds than ST tires. Who knows with better and better ST tires coming out that's got to help the RX8. Did I mention that it's boring to drive on the street?

It's also very course dependant. The more flowing a course is with offsets and slaloms (like the East course) the more you can make up the lack of power with better cornering speeds. But then you look at the West course with all the point and shoot type corners and it wasn't even close.