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CT9A Resurrection and Innovation

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Old Jan 13, 2016, 12:07 PM   #211
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The position of the motor really got me. It's going to handle incredibly.

- Renato
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Old Jan 14, 2016, 01:23 PM   #212
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The position of the motor really got me. It's going to handle incredibly.



- Renato
Would be a neat stage rally car lol
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Old Jan 14, 2016, 08:53 PM   #213
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Electron, Are you actually charging and discharging the module to see its efficiency? ..... if I am not mistaken there was a recall on them years back, but giving the temps around your area, they shouldn't be impacted much I would think.
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 05:31 AM   #214
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Electron, Are you actually charging and discharging the module to see its efficiency? ..... if I am not mistaken there was a recall on them years back, but giving the temps around your area, they shouldn't be impacted much I would think.
I am charging, balancing and then discharging the cells to ascertain their capacity. I think you might be speaking of the 2014-15 revision that some people refer to as the 'lizard pack' due to its increased performance in hot conditions. I dont have that pack, my pack is from a 2013. Most reports I've read of diminishing capacity have been in 2010-2012 packs, but I guess we will see how my 2013 pack performs. Once this car is fully set up, I intend to push the cells a little bit
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 07:56 PM   #215
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I'm no ev expert, but your project got me really interested. I'm curious why you're using the warp 11 motor. It puts out 30kw (40hp), way too much torque that raises concern for the drivetrain, and weighs 200lbs. Why not something like this:

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=257

It costs about the same, puts out 67kw (100hp) nominally and they're claiming 150kw (200hp) for short periods with adequate cooling. And it weighs the same. I know your zilla controller is a DC controller but sourcing another controller is probably something you could do easily.
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Old Jan 17, 2016, 06:46 AM   #216
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I'm no ev expert, but your project got me really interested. I'm curious why you're using the warp 11 motor. It puts out 30kw (40hp), way too much torque that raises concern for the drivetrain, and weighs 200lbs. Why not something like this:

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produc...roducts_id=257

It costs about the same, puts out 67kw (100hp) nominally and they're claiming 150kw (200hp) for short periods with adequate cooling. And it weighs the same. I know your zilla controller is a DC controller but sourcing another controller is probably something you could do easily.
I'm excited to see the interest in EV conversions!

Way too much torque is a relative term. What constitutes 'too much' for one person might be 'not enough' for someone else. If one is uninterested in replacing drive-train components due to overpowering them, then I agree with you; a less powerful electric motor would better suit an OEM clutch and T-case. However, increasing torque directly correlates to increased acceleration which, in my opinion, equates to increased driving pleasure. If stock components fail, I will replace them with stronger components. This is the cost of building a powerful vehicle.

The ratings of most Series DC motors are unlike ICE motors. The power figure supplied by the manufacturer is a 1 hour rating. The 30kW number is what the warp 11 will handle continuously for 1 hour, before performance lessens and heat becomes a problem. For brief periods, the motor can safely handle MUCH more power than the 1 hour rating. The warp 11 is able to handle 180kW (if well cooled) long enough to rake through the gears and achieve a speed that will have your car impounded by authorities.

The AC motor you cite is excellent, but check out what a 150kW AC controller costs. On the same web site there are a few offerings ranging from $5000-$8000. This puts the AC motor and controller package at about $8000. I got my Warp 11 and zilla for $3000 and they're capable of making +30kW more power than the AC motor.

*One other benefit of the series DC motor is that they are often available with shaft protrusions on either side of the rotor. This enables users to turn the gearbox with the 'drive end' and spin auxiliary components (a/c, pwr steer pumps etc.) with the other end....OR one can utilize the non-drive end shaft to mate motors together and double power output.
For example: 2 warp 11s in series fed 1200A at 320V would produce 460hp and 714ftlbs assuming 89% efficiency

Last edited by electron bom; Jan 17, 2016 at 01:42 PM. Reason: posted neat numbers
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Old Jan 17, 2016, 09:21 PM   #217
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^ ah I see. Yea I saw the prices of the controllers after posting. Not cheap. But that motor is oem quality since it was used in ford electric transport vans. How long can the warp 11 hold 180kw? Long enough for ex: a standing mile run? (~30 seconds)
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Old Jan 18, 2016, 08:16 AM   #218
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^ ah I see. Yea I saw the prices of the controllers after posting. Not cheap. But that motor is oem quality since it was used in ford electric transport vans. How long can the warp 11 hold 180kw? Long enough for ex: a standing mile run? (~30 seconds)
There are really no definitive peak limits published for this motor. Statistics are hard to find due to the EV conversion market's relatively small size. Fortunately, many EV builders publish their experiences and data for reference. A great source of information, second only to company engineers, are first hand accounts. An engineer at Warfield electric has explained that 160V is a safe maximum for the warp 11. If heat issues can be mitigated, 1000-1200 amps can be a safe daily drive-able peak current limit.

Yet, there are examples of warp 11s running at much higher power levels.

EVTV Escalade
The guys at EVTV are an excellent resource for the EV DIYer, as they share empirical data via their on-location web show. They can be a bit long winded, but are very knowledgeable. Here Jack explains the software controlling his twin motor/twin controller set up for the Escalade. It appears they are providing a maximum of 192kW for each warp 11. If you're interested scroll to the 78:00 mark.

Bloodshed motors' '68 fastback
This '68 twin warp 11 mustang is making 800hp and 1800ftlbs. That is roughly 300kW per motor and he has set a couple standing mile world records with this car. I can't say this with any certainty, but at these power levels I assume he must have additional cooling for the commutator, CO2 perhaps.

EV West twin motor E36 M3
This car is a 400kW twin warp 11 car with a 2 speed transmission. In this video it makes 850ftlbs on a chassis dyno.

Last edited by electron bom; Jan 18, 2016 at 08:49 AM.
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Old Jan 18, 2016, 08:43 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by electron bom View Post
T
EVTV Escalade
The guys at EVTV are an excellent resource for the EV DIYer, as they share empirical data via their on-location web show. They can be a bit long winded, but are very knowledgeable. Here Jack explains the software controlling his twin motor/twin controller set up for the Escalade. It appears they are providing a maximum of 192kW for each warp 11. If you're interested scroll to the 78:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGxBR5WRx7k
Here's what we know about AC/DC.

Netgain Motors makes a superb series DC motor in the Warp 11. And there is NO known motor configuration that provides as much torque per ampere of current in as a series DC motor. This is because the same full current that goes through the stator also goes through the rotor and the two resulting fields are simply the maximum you can do in an electric motor.

Further, motors don't really have a power limit because electric motors do not make power. They translate electrical current into rotary axial torque.

You can put an infinite amount of current in and produce an infinite amount of torque - right up to the point where the insulation and/or current conductors break down and let the magic smoke out. At that point, they don't make any power at all.

A HP rating of an electric motor is very different. It is the maximum power that can be put INTO the motor for a continous period of one hour without burning up the windings. So a 50 hp electric motor can easily make 800 hp, but not for an hour. For a minute yes. An hour no. 12 seconds in a quarter mile, definitely.

We have the Siemens motor you refer to and in fact are the source of them. Siemens doesn't even have any more. We got them from the Azure Dynamics bankruptcy auction and a subsequent purchase of all of Siemens remaining inventory. We also have a few of the DMOC645 controllers left. http://store.evtv.me

We actually don't even carry DC motors any more and sell only AC induction and brushless permanent magnet AC motors.

Why?

It's really very simple and very good news. The batteries have gotten better. With modern Liithium ion batteries, you can put enough batteries into a car to drive at freeway speeds for an hour or even two.

What has that got to do with the motors? Cooling. With lead batteries we couldn't go far enough to burn up a Warp 11. We can now. As you go down the highway, if you use just a little more power than the motor can dissipate it gradually builds up a heat surplus. At some point, it melts down. And we have numerous examples of Warp9 and Warp11 burnouts NOT because they were producing too much power, they were just producing it too long.

We've tried blowers and all sorts of cooling arrangements. There's just not a way to remove enough heat with air cooling. You have to water cool an electric motor if you want to drive it for two hours continously.

There is no effective way to water cool a series DC motor because of the brushes and commutator. AC motors are almost ALWAYS water cooled.

HPEVS has even run into the same thing with their air cooled AC motors. Good for golf carts. Not for EVs. They just eventually burn up.

And so water cooled AC motors have just taken over hte game. This is what teh OEM's ALL use and that is the reason. It's a simple but cruel thermal management issue.

Warp11's continous their dominance in drag racing adn running the Texas Mile. But they are pretty much gone from the street car scene as the batteries have made longer ranges available.

If you want an inexpensive street car wiht a light battery doing 50 miles on a charge or errands, a Warp9 still works. But nobody really wants that. They all want 100 miles on a charge and a car they can rely on on the freeway.

Jack Rickard
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Old Jan 18, 2016, 09:08 AM   #220
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Wow Jack, thanks for the post! I'm a big fan of your show
I actually wanted a warp 11-HV for this car, inspired by what you did with that shelby cobra.
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Old Jan 18, 2016, 11:27 AM   #221
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Can't believe I have only found this now. Easily the most interesting thing I've found. Keep up the good work.
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Old Jan 21, 2016, 12:36 PM   #222
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Rick u got that thing ready yet??? Julian has told me about it several times when he stopped by.
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Old Jan 21, 2016, 01:18 PM   #223
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Rick u got that thing ready yet??? Julian has told me about it several times when he stopped by.
Hey Justin! Unfortunately the Evo has been sitting at the body shop for just over 7 weeks now. They keep telling me, "its next in line about to go on the machine.''
I'm going to call them tomorrow and see what is going on. Once the car is solid and registered for street use, I plan to bring it down to your dyno
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Old Jan 26, 2016, 01:11 PM   #224
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Awesome you know you are welcome! but hell by then we may be closer
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Old Jan 28, 2016, 10:07 AM   #225
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This is crazy!
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