CT9A Resurrection and Innovation
Jan 15, 2016, 05:31 AM
#214
Jan 15, 2016, 07:56 PM
#215
I'm no ev expert, but your project got me really interested. I'm curious why you're using the warp 11 motor. It puts out 30kw (40hp), way too much torque that raises concern for the drivetrain, and weighs 200lbs. Why not something like this:
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=257
It costs about the same, puts out 67kw (100hp) nominally and they're claiming 150kw (200hp) for short periods with adequate cooling. And it weighs the same. I know your zilla controller is a DC controller but sourcing another controller is probably something you could do easily.
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=257
It costs about the same, puts out 67kw (100hp) nominally and they're claiming 150kw (200hp) for short periods with adequate cooling. And it weighs the same. I know your zilla controller is a DC controller but sourcing another controller is probably something you could do easily.
Jan 17, 2016, 06:46 AM
#216
I'm no ev expert, but your project got me really interested. I'm curious why you're using the warp 11 motor. It puts out 30kw (40hp), way too much torque that raises concern for the drivetrain, and weighs 200lbs. Why not something like this:
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produc...roducts_id=257
It costs about the same, puts out 67kw (100hp) nominally and they're claiming 150kw (200hp) for short periods with adequate cooling. And it weighs the same. I know your zilla controller is a DC controller but sourcing another controller is probably something you could do easily.
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produc...roducts_id=257
It costs about the same, puts out 67kw (100hp) nominally and they're claiming 150kw (200hp) for short periods with adequate cooling. And it weighs the same. I know your zilla controller is a DC controller but sourcing another controller is probably something you could do easily.
Way too much torque is a relative term. What constitutes 'too much' for one person might be 'not enough' for someone else. If one is uninterested in replacing drive-train components due to overpowering them, then I agree with you; a less powerful electric motor would better suit an OEM clutch and T-case. However, increasing torque directly correlates to increased acceleration which, in my opinion, equates to increased driving pleasure. If stock components fail, I will replace them with stronger components. This is the cost of building a powerful vehicle.
The ratings of most Series DC motors are unlike ICE motors. The power figure supplied by the manufacturer is a 1 hour rating. The 30kW number is what the warp 11 will handle continuously for 1 hour, before performance lessens and heat becomes a problem. For brief periods, the motor can safely handle MUCH more power than the 1 hour rating. The warp 11 is able to handle 180kW (if well cooled) long enough to rake through the gears and achieve a speed that will have your car impounded by authorities.
The AC motor you cite is excellent, but check out what a 150kW AC controller costs. On the same web site there are a few offerings ranging from $5000-$8000. This puts the AC motor and controller package at about $8000. I got my Warp 11 and zilla for $3000 and they're capable of making +30kW more power than the AC motor.
*One other benefit of the series DC motor is that they are often available with shaft protrusions on either side of the rotor. This enables users to turn the gearbox with the 'drive end' and spin auxiliary components (a/c, pwr steer pumps etc.) with the other end....OR one can utilize the non-drive end shaft to mate motors together and double power output.
For example: 2 warp 11s in series fed 1200A at 320V would produce 460hp and 714ftlbs assuming 89% efficiency
Last edited by electron bom; Jan 17, 2016 at 01:42 PM. Reason: posted neat numbers
Jan 17, 2016, 09:21 PM
#217
^ ah I see. Yea I saw the prices of the controllers after posting. Not cheap. But that motor is oem quality since it was used in ford electric transport vans. How long can the warp 11 hold 180kw? Long enough for ex: a standing mile run? (~30 seconds)
Jan 18, 2016, 08:16 AM
#218
Yet, there are examples of warp 11s running at much higher power levels.
EVTV Escalade
The guys at EVTV are an excellent resource for the EV DIYer, as they share empirical data via their on-location web show. They can be a bit long winded, but are very knowledgeable. Here Jack explains the software controlling his twin motor/twin controller set up for the Escalade. It appears they are providing a maximum of 192kW for each warp 11. If you're interested scroll to the 78:00 mark.
Bloodshed motors' '68 fastback
This '68 twin warp 11 mustang is making 800hp and 1800ftlbs. That is roughly 300kW per motor and he has set a couple standing mile world records with this car. I can't say this with any certainty, but at these power levels I assume he must have additional cooling for the commutator, CO2 perhaps.
EV West twin motor E36 M3
This car is a 400kW twin warp 11 car with a 2 speed transmission. In this video it makes 850ftlbs on a chassis dyno.
Last edited by electron bom; Jan 18, 2016 at 08:49 AM.
Jan 18, 2016, 08:43 AM
#219
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EVTV Escalade
The guys at EVTV are an excellent resource for the EV DIYer, as they share empirical data via their on-location web show. They can be a bit long winded, but are very knowledgeable. Here Jack explains the software controlling his twin motor/twin controller set up for the Escalade. It appears they are providing a maximum of 192kW for each warp 11. If you're interested scroll to the 78:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGxBR5WRx7k
EVTV Escalade
The guys at EVTV are an excellent resource for the EV DIYer, as they share empirical data via their on-location web show. They can be a bit long winded, but are very knowledgeable. Here Jack explains the software controlling his twin motor/twin controller set up for the Escalade. It appears they are providing a maximum of 192kW for each warp 11. If you're interested scroll to the 78:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGxBR5WRx7k
Netgain Motors makes a superb series DC motor in the Warp 11. And there is NO known motor configuration that provides as much torque per ampere of current in as a series DC motor. This is because the same full current that goes through the stator also goes through the rotor and the two resulting fields are simply the maximum you can do in an electric motor.
Further, motors don't really have a power limit because electric motors do not make power. They translate electrical current into rotary axial torque.
You can put an infinite amount of current in and produce an infinite amount of torque - right up to the point where the insulation and/or current conductors break down and let the magic smoke out. At that point, they don't make any power at all.
A HP rating of an electric motor is very different. It is the maximum power that can be put INTO the motor for a continous period of one hour without burning up the windings. So a 50 hp electric motor can easily make 800 hp, but not for an hour. For a minute yes. An hour no. 12 seconds in a quarter mile, definitely.
We have the Siemens motor you refer to and in fact are the source of them. Siemens doesn't even have any more. We got them from the Azure Dynamics bankruptcy auction and a subsequent purchase of all of Siemens remaining inventory. We also have a few of the DMOC645 controllers left. http://store.evtv.me
We actually don't even carry DC motors any more and sell only AC induction and brushless permanent magnet AC motors.
Why?
It's really very simple and very good news. The batteries have gotten better. With modern Liithium ion batteries, you can put enough batteries into a car to drive at freeway speeds for an hour or even two.
What has that got to do with the motors? Cooling. With lead batteries we couldn't go far enough to burn up a Warp 11. We can now. As you go down the highway, if you use just a little more power than the motor can dissipate it gradually builds up a heat surplus. At some point, it melts down. And we have numerous examples of Warp9 and Warp11 burnouts NOT because they were producing too much power, they were just producing it too long.
We've tried blowers and all sorts of cooling arrangements. There's just not a way to remove enough heat with air cooling. You have to water cool an electric motor if you want to drive it for two hours continously.
There is no effective way to water cool a series DC motor because of the brushes and commutator. AC motors are almost ALWAYS water cooled.
HPEVS has even run into the same thing with their air cooled AC motors. Good for golf carts. Not for EVs. They just eventually burn up.
And so water cooled AC motors have just taken over hte game. This is what teh OEM's ALL use and that is the reason. It's a simple but cruel thermal management issue.
Warp11's continous their dominance in drag racing adn running the Texas Mile. But they are pretty much gone from the street car scene as the batteries have made longer ranges available.
If you want an inexpensive street car wiht a light battery doing 50 miles on a charge or errands, a Warp9 still works. But nobody really wants that. They all want 100 miles on a charge and a car they can rely on on the freeway.
Jack Rickard
Jan 21, 2016, 01:18 PM
#223
I'm going to call them tomorrow and see what is going on. Once the car is solid and registered for street use, I plan to bring it down to your dyno
