I am sure that is why it got moved. I am not new to the car scene and just got rid of my SRT-4. The same thing goes with PSI-FI on the SRTforums. It is ridiculous. I moved up a calss of cars hoping that the crowd would be a little more mature about things since it is a little more pricey but I guess not.

I do know that the post could have started off differently. There were personal attacks, name calling, and all of the childish stuff I have seen before on the other forum. PSI-FI has some cool stuff but I never bought from them just because it took a week to get a reply e-mail. No one ever answered the phone. And they were WAYYYY too cocky. I hope that is not the way of Vishnu as you have some pretty nice products...But, there seems to be similarities with the arguements.

I am not siding with anyone as I haven't done business with any party on this forum. I would like to think though, that when I do, they take me seriously in my needs for power and not their own time to shine in the spotlight. Just my $.02.

Kris

 

lame... At any rate ill be seeking out Vishnu to tune my IX.

At least I got to see the thread and have seen the truth first-hand. I'm glad I've always only let Shiv tune my cars..

 

Awesome post. I have met Shiv in person and he can tell you i was one of his biggest critics. He even called me #1 Vishnu hater, however I was man enough to discuss some things with him face to face. He even took me for a ride in one of the EVO's he tuned. Very nice guy in person.

I have also talked with Al and I cant say he was a sweetheart, but he's a straight shooter and that rubs some folks the wrong way.

The point being is people are going to be different and like different things, but if the vendors insight topics like this and encourage the flame wars then it will always continue.

The cliques on here are CRAZY. I have never been anywhere worse. Respect one anothers differences and go on with your life.

As far as the removal of the thread, dont blast the mod till you been in thier shoes. There are way too many threads that go to **** because of immature bullsh!t. I wouldnt take the time to edit it either.

Before you point the finger, look in the mirror. Thats for ALL of us.

 

Do you really think that some of the parties involved (Jim Paterson, Milltown/Kevin/Evo8power/etc, and Air Poppoff, among others) can have their behaviors held in check through "tough love PM's". I did my share of post reporting during this saga. But I don't see how any of it got us anywhere. Eventually, insults and completely illogical arguments ensue and those of us with the ability to interpret data properly are left swimming in a pool with those who should never stray from the shallow end.

This problem did not begin here. I've seen posts made from people with far more technical knowledge and industry creditials than any of us get their entire posts deleted simply because it was in odds with a vendor. Is this the what we really need? The same old parties spewing psuedo-technical jargon in order to wage a poorly conceived marketing campaign and impress those without the basic knowledge foundation to fairly process that misinformation? The minute someone comes up and puts them in check, their post gets deleted??? Is this anyway to operate a forum dedicated to the spread of information and free-thinking?

IMHO, NO ONE should be protected here from anything other than insults and name-calling. And even in those cases, the imflamatory posts should be simply edited (not erased) with a moderator note saying "Post edit for namecalling. The user was given a warning." Good Lord, what I would do for a moderating body that could edit posts that say something as inanely stupid as "I don't like X because he left his jacket at my friend's shop and didn't where shoes when he was tuning." Does anyone else see the problem here?

This entire forum has alreay lost a lot of good knowledgable people. Those who have been contributing to the industry for years, if not decades. Why is it their voice gets censored along with the those that couldn't put a logical, insult-free statement together if their lives depending on it? And why is it that those who are most prone to insult at a personal level are the the ones that can't differentiate between a statement and a flame? More than one person on this thread has accused me of being unprofessional towards Al who labeled me as "vile, toxic, ignorant, etc,." within the first few posts. Where are these police officers in this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=133178

And why, despite being shrouded in a mist of misinformation and slander, is that there still there. Following the fate that befell this thread, that thread should be thrown out as well, right? Not only did Al misinform the readers, he is avoiding one simple, polite request to reveal imformation that is only fair to reveal. You know why that thread is still up? I'll tell you: Because it is his right to post that. Just as it is our right to ask for additional information. What is this double-stardard? Why is it that some parties react to disconcerting information violently and others just plug way with it and try to get to the bottom of things? And why does everyone have to suffer because of the actions of the same group of people? With the current state of affairs, anytime a party wants to put an end to the thread, they just start a flame war. Despite saying, "I have nothing more to say and I will not respond to these accusations," they continue to flame. And the thread gets moved. Worked out pretty good for the, eh?

Shiv

 

Sad I was really learning a lot from that thread. Before I even got my evo I got on here to learn and I rember reading a lot of post in the dynoflash forum where he posted better charts and bashed the other guy. Now it is turned and not even was it named which was very professional IMHO. However it is sad to see such a good thread that was generating a lot of usefull info get deleted. Simply because peoples feelings where hurt I wanted to know the answer to a lot of questions. Well now it looks like I wont have that chance. I also agree with the lock and not trashing it. I mean we are not little 12 year old kids and have surely read/seen a lot worst things on the net. Why not just let us judge and decide on our own with out haveing to read "Other" stuff that doesn't get deleted. While this that had hard facts even from the customer himself not exist.

Honestly its called freedom of speech and I dont think being censored by someone just because they got hurt is fare.

/end of rant

 

As a memeber of a public forum that has brought about good information I think there is some good things in that thread and should not be Deleted, if it needs cleaned up and locked so be it, but I think it is something that one should consider before tuning their Evolution when considering a Road Tune.
If I come on here not knowing that info and search road tune I want to consider the information before I decide to get one or not. What is the point of the community if we are not helping each other??
-James

 

Although there may have been some good, technical info/discussion to glean from that thread (or the topic in general), the main problem is that the original wording was intended to discredit both the method of tuning and the parts used. What was NOT pointed out was how this was just an anomaly at best and is NOT indicative of most cars that get tuned by this method. When there are 1000 cars out there (not an exaggeration) with a Dynoflash and countless numbers with these same Buschur products, we all know that the results seen on the dyno from this car were NOT normal by any means.

So, to carry on as if this is some end-all discussion of dyno tuning vs road tuning or stock parts vs Buschur parts is simply not accurate. All this would be is a discussion of how ONE car with an UNDIAGNOSED problem that was retuned from scratch with several parts returned to stock and made more power. There are also plenty of examples where people ditched their Xede's and got flashed, then made lots more power. However, does this mean that Shiv can't tune or that the Xede sucks? HEll no. It means that in one (or 2 or 10) circumstance, the flash was able to produce more power than the Xede without all the details or the true reasons given - not from lack of disclosure, but from lack of proper troubleshooting.

This is my only problem with this thread topic and the arguments there-in. It simply CANNOT be used as a generalization for all road tunes. Something was obviously wrong with this car, and it is not responsible nor fair to claim that it was ONLY the tune or that such a lack of power is common with that tuning method (it's been proven many times that this is not the case).

 

Warrtalon- while I do appreciate your contributions, how fair is it for you to conclude that the results from the car was an "anomoly at best?" How many other road tuned EVO 9s have you seen tested on a dyno? Certainly not "1000s". Please let's put a hold on the whole tuner loyalty thing and address fact with fact. It was proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that the only problem with the car was the tune.

shiv

 

Indeed Warrtalon, but everybody should know when getting a Road tune the possible outcome wether it be good or bad. In that case I don't believe it was a good outcome.
-James

 

I've seen several dyno results of IXs that Al has tuned. He's posted them for all to see. I did not know this was a "road tuning does not work on IXs" thread. That has never been explicitly stated. If that's the new topic, then please specify, because random people reading your thread don't know any better. I've had several people who were planning to get Dynoflash road tunes (VIIIs and IXs) PM me to ask questions to hopefully calm their nerves. There is no distinction in these threads between whether or not the road tuning or Dynoflashing in general is a good method for VIIIs or IXs - it's just pointing out road tuning in general as being a poor option, which is not true.

So, if the point NOW is that road tuning by Al is not a good method to glean good power ONLY on _IXs_, then let's make that clear. Also, I'm being as reasonable as anyone could expect, so please don't throw the "vendor loyalty" thing at me. You can go through all 5000 of my threads and see that I have not once questioned your tuning, your tuning devices, nor your methods. My "loyalty" does not mean I automatically discredit everyone else. In fact, I am in agreement with you on keeping the stock airbox and stock IC piping as long as possible. Everything I've accomplished has been with both the stock airbox and stock IC piping. I am only now moving up to a Buschur air filter kit due to going with cams and alky and potentially pushing close to 400whp.

 

But that's possible with any tuning from any vendor. As I said, there have been plenty of cases where people ditched their Xede's to go with a flash and had huge gains. The difference is you don't see Al (or others) posting up threads to use it as a way to crucify Shiv (or other tuners). It could be done, believe me, but I'm trying to keep that from occurring from our side...

 

Are you reading the same forum as I am?

-shiv

 

If I'm wrong, I can admit that. Show me examples of where this has occurred in the past year, and I'll edit my comments. I know you guys have a history, but I've only been fully active with this community since April of 2005.

 

Please don't paint Al as a guy who doesn't sh$t-talk the competition. Anyone who has been to one of his west coast road tuning session can attest to the fact that he spends just as much time insulting the tuners out here as he does tuning the car. Why is it that every single tuner that I know of (with the exception of one who he is "partners' with) has their beef with him? This is not by coincidence.

As per your request:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=133178

I'll be more than happy to look for more instances later but I'm going to try to enjoy my weekend.

shiv

 

The point was not to make more power or bash any tuner but rather to improve driveability and eliminate his cel code issues. To that extent the problem is fixed.

I was not expecting to make any more power than a great tuner like shiv - that is not realistic - obviously the set up was already almost at max whp. My goal was to smooth it out and fine tune it.

I will let the customer speak about how well I accomplished this
__________________



This was quoted from a thread that Shiv posted about up a few posts. This is what Al said about the tune on this car that came into his shop with problems.