WoRkZ

iTrader: (2)

I must agree with you there (I keep doing that today... most unusual from the both of us)... and it will probably be my choice too.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

A few points,

1. for every Subaru fanboy on NASIOC, there is a Mitsubishi fanboy here, a Honda fanboy on Hondatech, etc., there are fanboys everywhere and some of the things people have said here about the WRX/STI is just as ignorant/naive/stupid as what people on NASIOC say about the Ralliart/Evo.
2. Considering that the 08 WRX was competing directly with the Ralliart, it's probably safe to say that if the upgrades are true, the WRX will outperform it. It already puts down the same performance numbers so with an extra 40 HP and better suspension (and maybe better tires), it should logically be faster since it weighs less.
3. Based on logs performed by a lot of people, all that will be necessary to get that 40 HP is a better tune and maybe changes to the exhaust or intake system. It's not going to require a massive amount of work nor will it make the car peaky and unusable. Drive a stage 2 WRX and see how it performs, I expect that the 09 will be similar.
4. Yes the WRX is not pretty, but it never has been and the evo never has been. No one will say they are good looking cars on par with a corvette, a ferrari, a porsche, etc., but that's not what they were made for and that's not why they have the reputation that they have. I would rather drive an unattractive car that can go like stick than look good but be passed by every mini van out there. Looks are always going to be subjective, performance numbers win arguments. Someone can tell me my car is ugly but if I can beat them in a race, I don't care.

Eternal_Ronin

Hm, I can only imagine what the next couple of years are going to be like... Toyota's bringing AWD Matrix and Celicas, Mazda should improve the MS3 eventually... Mitsu's Ralliart and Subby's Rex...

At least Mazda, Subaru and Mitsu, will be going back and forth with who claims supremacy in this category, and it would be tuners who would benefit most from these three companies trying to prove their product is better...

All the cars I've owned are Mitsu, Montero Sport back when I was 16, then a Mirage, and now the Lancer... it would only make sense for me as a Mitsu fan to step into a RA or Evo as a goal. I'd ignore the MS3's better performance and Subby's sweet engine sound (I just love hearing those boxer engines rev), and go for that sexy *** RA... just gotta wait till they come out with an MT version...

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

The major thing the mazda has going against it is the lack of AWD, not a lot of people want a high horsepower FWD that either A. spins its tires, B. understeers like a pig, C. has a system that drops the power to avoid slippage (like the MS3 does) or D. all of the above.

Eternal_Ronin

So, seeing how AWD vehicles are being popular now (Hell, even the MATRIX is AWD now)... it's the next obvious step for the MS3... and I would say that Mazda needs to make it a bit more aggressive looking... it just looks WAY to dull for me...

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

AWD adds cost though and it will reduce the car's fuel efficiency and rolling performance (since AWD eats more power).

Option

The Matrix has always had an AWD variant. They've just never been sporty (soft suspension, no power, and auto tranny only).

Also, I believe the MS3 has sold VERY well. I don't know is Mazda will want to mess with a winning formula. AWD would add weight and cost which would hurt its biggest strong point: its fun-per-dollar ratio.

Eternal_Ronin

True that AWD adds weight and cost... I used to own a touge-focused Mirage, and I used to take corners very well with little body roll... I went to the touge after I got the Lancer, and I will not go again with my Lancer... too much body roll, too much weight... ugh... it made me sick... SO, it seems cars will only get heavier... that's true, and it sucks. I didn't know though that the previous gen Matrix had AWD...

MS3 is great... but still... I'm just too big of a mitsu fan... When you look at it this way... older, Evo VIII and IXs are costing pretty much the same or less than these new cars... and the 4G63-T is a monster... so... i dun know... The MS3 looks too dull for my taste...

hibby

I'm going to respectfully disagree. The '04-'05 blob-eye WRX/STi, and to a lesser extent, the '06-'07 pignose were attractive cars when you consider the pricing segment they were in and reasoning behind the way they looked -- big scoop for the top-mount -- wide box fenders so you can run a bigger tire. Same goes for the Evo, including the current design, as polarizing as it's been. These are cars that look like what they are...purposeful, agressivive, speed-as-a-priority cars. You can't say that for the '08-up WRX -- Subaru took the edge away and that's a damn shame.

WoRkZ

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to burst your bubble ambystom01, but most people I talked to think the Subie is fugly and the new Lancer/EVO looks agressive. Some even told me they think it looks like a more expensive car... which can't be said for the new WRX.

Maybe you should start a poll... on a neutral car forum even. I don't have the slightest doubt which car the people will vote for... there's absolutely no contest here. But feel free to test my assumption though, who knows...

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

I agree that they look cool, they're aggressive and functional but they'll never be held in the same regard as Porsches Aston Martins that are truly beautiful cars.

WoRkZ

iTrader: (2)

Agreed. I'm only comparing it to other cars in the same class of course...

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

That's nice but if you give people a choice between superior performance and looks, first, how many people will favor looks and second, what kind of people will favor looks? What happens if the slower car costs more? What happens if it comes from a new company like Mitsubishi (this applies to the canadian market)? Racing enthusiasts/tuners won't favor looks as much since that's easier to change and cheaper, lowering a new WRX and changing the front grill does wonders for how it looks. By comparison, extracting more power than comes from the factory is both costly (relatively speaking) and voids the warranty in almost all circumstances. A lot of people are also not interested in modifying a car period. Clearly plenty of people like the new Impreza since it's selling very well. Do I like the new Impreza? No but I understand why Subaru did what they did and it is working for them. Trying to put one car in front of the other is almost impossible, they both have their advantages and their disadvantages and neither can truly claim to be superior.

WoRkZ

iTrader: (2)

Well, I was only saying people generally tend to think the RalliArt is a nicer looking car... not an overall better car. But since you mention it, most journalists tend to think it is a better car to. And that might explain why Subaru is thinking of upgrading their car already. The power of the press is a powerful motivator...

And as far as sales go, it's not a question of who has the better car in their lineup but rather, as you pointed out yourself, more a question of brand recognition. Subaru is an established brand and outsells Mitsubishi by a large margin. And that is why Mitsubishi always MUST have a better overall car to sell... just to hope to sell some of them, as people would tend to simply overlook them. This might not be such an important factor in the US... but where I'm from, people don't tend to have a look at Mitsubishi's products until I actually remind them of the existence of the brand. Sad but true...

Anyway, let's see what the future holds for the 2nd gen. RA... I just hope it sells well enough that Mitsubishi is tempted to continue improving it. After all, it's quite a good base upon which to build.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

Except that the Ralliart hasn't even been released yet so any magazine tests are a bit early and may not represent the actual product. Until the price is revealed and people actually start driving them, who knows what will happen. More importantly, magazine reviews mean nothing, sure they give you numbers, but numbers won't tell you whether you'll even like the car. If all I cared about were numbers, I should have bought an MS3 but I've had enough of FWD.
The only problem I think Mitsubishi might have is that the Ralliart is already quite close to the evo and it's quite pricey if you take any of the estimates as resembling reality. If they make the car more hardcore and bump the power, they'll hurt sales of the evo unless they change the evo as well. The advantage Subaru has is that it'll still be very hard to make a WRX an STI since the tranny alone is a 5000$ upgrade.