Great - let me know when you are free - I am interested to see how the winshild washer flid works - that will make it super easy for those who are traveling

 

I'm just curious why you beleive this to be the case?

Here comes my $0.02

Water is a more effective anti-detonant than any form of alcohol. To understand this, you have to understand what octane measures. Octane references how easily fuel ignites. The higher the octane, the higher the ignition point. Alcohol raises the effective octane of pump gas. A good alcohol injection system can raise your effective octane to make pump gas behave as though it were as high as 96 octane...

...but...

... pure water raises it even further. In addition, alcohol doesn't cool as well in the cylinder as water, since water has a very high latent heat of evaporation (the actual method by which heat is removed from the cylinder -- the physical process by which liquid water vapor turns to steam). Whatever benefits alcohol may have of absorbing heat pre-combustion as compared to water, are significantly overshadowed by water's effectiveness during combustion -- which is, after all, where a water injection really shines. Add to this the fact that alcohol is much less stable than water from a tuning standpoint (makes it hard to nail down a stable tune), and I guess I can only see one really good reason to use alcohol over water -- if your fuel system is borderline for the amount of boost you would like to run. However, a fuel system that is near max capacity seems to me an odd premise for adding an alcohol injection system. I would either upgrade the fuel system if you insist on running uber rich, or use water injection to run a significantly leaner and meaner tune by reaping the benefits of increased octane and better in-cylinder cooling as compared to alcohol.

If anyone has info to the contrary, please post up. I'm not trying to pick any fights, but I have spent years around this stuff and I always find it fascinating when alcohol/methanol/propane/C02/etc is presented as the next big thing over water, when plain old water seems to win from a physics standpoint every time.

I'm not saying alcohol injection doesn't work -- it clearly does -- I'm just saying for people with adequate fuel systems, water works better.

-- DavidV

 

Maybe I am! Thanks for the props, Al.

-- DavidV

 

BTW... before anyone slams me with vendor bias, I want to come right out in the open and say that I was one of the biggest advocates at another (ahem) vendor behind their decision to play with, develop, and ultimately offer water injection.

Now... I could care less at this point which path is adopted by the Evo community, since I have moved on to other things, but of all the Evo related products and projects that have been coming down the pipe from various vendors, this one is probably the one I have been following with the most interest.

BTW: Props to Al and Dave for going out on a limb and trying something a bit outside of the mainstream.

-- DavidV

 

HMMMM..... thats something to think about Al any comments on what DAVIDV said maybe we should try a few runs with few different combinations like water mix and windshield wiper fluid and see what we put down on the dyno and how lean or rich the tune looks with each ??

 

I've been going over the water vs. alcohol myself... and for the daily driver, H2O seems to be the safest all around solution. Don't get me wrong either. I am on the edge of buying one of David Buschur's Alcohol systems right now. However, I'd feel better about a water system in the long run. Not to mention that the only other vendor releasing such a system right now is going to want 2 to 3 times the $$$ that Buschur is asking. That company's products have a history of being grossly over priced anyway.

 

interesting stuff

 

I ran water injection on my Talon for about 2 years with great sucess. I experimented with methanol and actually detonated and pulled timing when I ran mixtures up to a 50/50 mix of methanol and water. I settled on a 25% methanol and 75% water mixture with our crappy California 91 octane. This mixture was a little better than just straight water for my car. I was able to run 21 PSI with about 20-22 degrees of timing with a small 16G and 264 cams. I'm almost done swapping out the water injection set up from my Talon and into my Evo. It will be interesting to see if just water will do the trick on my Evo. I'll be hooking up with Al the next time he comes out to L.A. and we'll see what the results will be.

 

The Buschur kit will work fine with alcohol - 50% / 50% - or staight water as a water injection kit

The only difference is HOW you set up your boost and tune

It is a common theme in the buick forums that water injection alone will not hold as much boost or power as methanol

I am no chemst

Apparently a combination thereof may be the ideal solution to power and safety concerns

Of course pure water is going to give you some great detnation resistance and charge cooling effect at zero cost so it would be something to seriously consider. I like the alcohol becuase it is an additional fuel and inhances the power and it totally elminates any knock activity what so ever.

My plan is to test everything and report back .

 

Your results are similar to what I have read on buick and supra forums - straight alcohol seems to be the ultimate at detonation resistance.

 

Dave: I'm an advocate of water/alky injection. I stated that with high boost levels 25lbs+ the methanol allows for higher hp levels, the h20 just enhances the intercooling effect substancially. In 1989 we were running a windshield washer solvent injection not a 50/50 mix, with a paxton on a stock L89 350 sbc. With 8lbs of boost and 125 shot of N20 and the injection the F-body went 11.47 @ 125 with only headers, and a 3.23 limited slip rear gear ratio. The car was a real sleeper for the time. My friend forgot to fill the washer canister with a straight solvent and burned 2 pistons with actual holes melted through (no monitoring) except between budweisers . BTW that combo lasted for 50k of beatings. The car was running cooler btw after the run, around 160 degrees.

 

The standard "Stop & Rob" or Walmart windshield washer fluid would probably be the best compermise (daily driver) between the two... I'm VERY interested in seeing how it works out.

 

That is what I am thinking. Although I intend to run 100% alcohol in my own personal car for sure

 

I am voting for H20

 

I use the walmart type washer fluid on my Malibu's W/I setup.. I intend to do the same on the Evo.. Pure water has one drawback.. It'll freeze in the temps we get here in the northeast, so you have to run some mix for that reason alone, for consistency of tuning, I run the same thing all the time and not water during the summer and a mix in the winter..
I've even done nasty things such as running other additives in the water bottle (go juice and whatnot)