I think my early question got overlooked. Al, any feedback?

 

...and that is another good point MalibuJack.

 

Maybe this document I found - translated from german will help to answer how it can make more power

okey.., maybe a bad translation... into english (www.google.com) ...excuse..

QUESTION: What is a WAES exact?

NEXTEK: A WAES squirts a mixture of water and alcohol with an electromagnetic high-pressure pump over a special molecular atomizing
nozzle into the Luftansaugtrakt in

QUESTION: Why does a turbo engine with a WAES achieve a higher performance?

NEXTEK: the main problem of each combustion engine is the thermal load. With practically all engines the performance is limited by the
temperature in the combustion chamber. If a certain temperature is exceeded, then uncontrolled burns (knock) occur. These uncontrolled
burns lead to a substantial power loss and finally to damage to the engine. With a turbo engine this problem strengthens even still. The intake
air of the turbo engine is strongly warmed up in the turbine (by compression and heat transfer of the exhaust gases) and the thermal upper
limit is fast achieved. In conventional turbo engines one tries to get this problem with the assistance of intercoolers into the grasp. The
performance of a turbo engine depends thus directly on the efficiency of the intercooler, thus on the cooling of the intake air. However close
physical boundaries are set to the effectiveness of intercoolers by the ambient temperature and the max. size. An increase of the load
printing furnishes no more increased output in this situation and a damage to the engine is practically pre-programmed. In this problems now
the concept of a WAES intervenes. By the injection water/alcohol of a mixture one achieves an additional cooling of the warmed up intake air.
The large advantage of a WAES is that the cooling is physically practically not limited. I.e. if the intake air is too strongly warmed up, one
increases simply the injection amount and achieves thus the cooling desired. By this unique advantage one can use the capacity of the Turbos
fully and attainable engine performance is reduced not by the thermal boundaries.

QUESTION: How much can I expect increased output?

NEXTEK: The attainable increased output depends on the performance of the turbine. With a qualitative high-quality turbine an increased
output of up to 45 per cent is possible.


I personally find that our stock turbo makes lots of hot air at 20 plus psi and that the stock ecu knock sesnor is very sensitive - this is why the alcohol injection really aides you with a reflashed ecu to eliminate all knock

Here is some more data that you may find helpful also

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/naca_H2O.pdf

 

Water or a mix of h20/r-oh will make a little less power over 100% r-oh (at least that is my guess as to what Al will find). We are running smaller engines then a lot of other guys running a mix, small motors have a harder time with water. IF Al can get all of the timing advance AND boost out of r-oh then it will make more power, if not he might be able to dial in a little more timing to compensate for the water.

Water can only cool the charge and reduce combustion temps, alky can cool the charge and add btu's (power) to the combustion pressure, therby making more power. Ideally you want to reduce combustion temps to a level that suppresses knock and nothing more, any more and you are loosing power.

My 2 cents but Al can really find out this week so we can all know for sure!

 

We will find out this week i accepted Al's offer to tune my car on windshield fluid and water if possible so he can post the results and see what would be the safest way to go for a daily driven car.

 

Again, I'm not sure where you guys are getting this info... to recap my earlier post:

water + gas = slower burning gas = higher octane.

Water is significanftly more effective at cooling in the cylinder -- where it counts.

-- DavidV

 

DavidV, you can have the coolest cylinder in the world and go no where. You need energy to make your car move. True water does cool the intake charge the best it adds no extra energy. With the water and alcahol you get both the intake charge cooling plus the extra energy provided by the alcahol. This is just my understanding, I could be wrong.

 

...I believe David is try to say that you want the coolest temp possible prior to ignition.

 

Once again from my limited knowledge:

Lowering the intake charge temperature has one large benefit, it help prevent early detonation. Lowering the intake charge after the point of knock prevention has no preformance gains that I know of. However with an WAES system the water cools the intake charge enough to prevent knock and the alcahol adds energy to the system allowing for more power. I would describe using 100% water injection as "over-kill" when cooling the intake temp.

 

Ok two questions....

1)Where would you get the alcohol from? Is there a certain type one would use?

2)How safe would it be to carry the alcohol in your trunk for a extra fillup (I dont wanna get arrested trying to cross a bridge in nyc for having a class b expolsive or an "open container and get a dwi..Lol!!)

 

1 - Any Home Depot , Wal Mart or other hardwear store

2 - I would just carry it in the small one gallon container that it is sold in - that way you will have no problems

 

After speaking with the builder of these kits who has over a decade of experience with these on turbo buicks and also lots of subaru experience, THIS KIT, is limited to 100% denatured alcohol as you will find in your Home Depot.

Mixing it with water is not advised at this time due to compatability issues with the pump.

I am advised that a upgraded stainless steel pump option is now in testing and will be available within a month or so which will cost an additional $175.00 per kit which will allow you to run the windshield washer fluid or 50% 50% alcohol / water mix.

In summary, the advice I am recieveing is that there is some small fire risk in the event of a front end collision which impacts into the tank holding the alcohol. With over a 1,000 of these kits being sold to the turbo buick community there have been no reported issues or problems to date.

Those considering this kit should factor in the saftey risk of staight alcohol vs. the significant performance advantanges of running staight alcohol whith is all additonal fuel which burns more energy - thus making more power.

My goal is to eventually offer this kit in a staight alcohol version and in a more expensive 50% / 50% mix version and have tunes for each set ups.

 

The reason you can't run this kit with any water is that it uses a fuel pump. Fuel pumps and water don't mix.

Also, unless you need additional fuel (undersized injectors and/or pump) alcohol is not going to give you a "significant performance advantage" over water, IMO. It is the other way around.

-- DavidV

 

I'm with David on this one, having a good water injection system already in my car (Aquamist 2D) that can either operate on water or alcohol. Didn't try it on straight methanol yet, but 60% methanol and 40% water does make the car rather silly. :-)

 

While I respect your input - I repescpectfully disagree - and the mates over in the UK on the lancer forums also concur regarding staight water injection.

I intend to fully explore the possibilities with A - B dyno testing as I do on everything else and document how each method works