Let's see your fully tuned timing maps
Actually it did not knock that bad, around 3 counts on pump 93. It is no big secret that I used to run a spike of 28psi on pump. I hit 29 on accident trying to get the ecu settings right for the pill. Also did not help my gauge was only reading 25 (which I was shooting for). Confirmed the 29psi on the dyno's MAP sensor.
I would run 28spike that tapered to 20ish at redline (7k). It would hold pretty nice boost thru the midrange which made for a nice tq curve and badass feel on the street. Car at this boost did 360tq/340hp on Dynomite dyno (reads about 10-15% lower then a dynojet). With just intake filter, exhaust and flash. Car ran 11.85@114 with those mods/settings. I personally think 26psi and a good FMIC and Evo VIII 4th gear would have taken her 11.5 or better. My car would haul *** on the front half, but be heatsoaked and out of gear on the back end. Car was an absolute monster on the street due to the huge tq and nice midrange.
SQ
I would run 28spike that tapered to 20ish at redline (7k). It would hold pretty nice boost thru the midrange which made for a nice tq curve and badass feel on the street. Car at this boost did 360tq/340hp on Dynomite dyno (reads about 10-15% lower then a dynojet). With just intake filter, exhaust and flash. Car ran 11.85@114 with those mods/settings. I personally think 26psi and a good FMIC and Evo VIII 4th gear would have taken her 11.5 or better. My car would haul *** on the front half, but be heatsoaked and out of gear on the back end. Car was an absolute monster on the street due to the huge tq and nice midrange.
SQ
o and also how much timing did you run at those 28psi spikes with 93 octane? =X
i'm gonna do another pull in the afternoon with more timing where everyone suggest instead of upping the boost, and i also leaned out my afr as suggested. then i'll post another log today
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I agree, some people get so hung up on trying to run way too much boost that they actually reduce performance over where they were with more reasonable boost and higher timing with the proper AFR. They also lose consistency between runs due to the excess heat.
^ https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=328285
post 10 motivated my curiousity...i'm also studying the turbine efficiencies(nth) at different pressures and temperatures for another project. sometimes better nth doesn't produce the most amount of work or power.
post 10 motivated my curiousity...i'm also studying the turbine efficiencies(nth) at different pressures and temperatures for another project. sometimes better nth doesn't produce the most amount of work or power.
Last edited by ixbreaker; Mar 6, 2008 at 08:53 AM.
higher boost numbers sound cooler
I agree, some people get so hung up on trying to run way too much boost that they actually reduce performance over where they were with more reasonable boost and higher timing with the proper AFR. They also lose consistency between runs due to the excess heat.
I agree, some people get so hung up on trying to run way too much boost that they actually reduce performance over where they were with more reasonable boost and higher timing with the proper AFR. They also lose consistency between runs due to the excess heat.
i know it's off topic, but whilst the more knowledgable people are on this thread....does anyone know what the airflow in Hz signal converts to. i mean is there a table that correlates the signal to kg/s or (mass of air/unit time).
g/rev*rpm/454= approx air flow in lbs per minute.
Those formulas came from Eric (L2r99gst) and then thats where I came up with the next logical step in Evoscan (the one Jeff is sending you)
lbs/min * 9.15=approx hp
JB
I dont think its simply that higher boost sounds cooler and thats what motivates people. Some cars respond better to higher boost and dont end up losing a bunch of timing in the process to make more power. For instance look at Buschur's recent success with big turbos and high boost on pump gas.
My post in that other thread is not intended to make people go out and do some silly things and blow up their car. I can tell you though i do not have head studs and still have even compression across all 4 cylinders and its pretty close to where it should be (I have cams so it throws the numbers off somewhat). I found more power in my particular application.
In that thread I also mentioned that my load difference between race gas and higher boost (3psi more than that post) and 10* more timing only yielded a 25-30* increase in what load cell it was in. I would attribute all most all of that to the extra boost and not the extra timing. However as has been pointed out, the EGT's are certainly somewhat higher and despite knock it makes it less a highway or road race proposition as it does drag only.
I feel the max for street boost and good timing is probably 25-26 on a stock turbo with 92 or 93 and still maintain a little more reliability than what I am facing. I am in it for the long term though and will be sharing my results as I go along. I do also have a 3.5" IC and fairly cold air temps year round. That makes a big difference over someone trying this in the desert in the middle of summer with a stock FMIC.
JB
My post in that other thread is not intended to make people go out and do some silly things and blow up their car. I can tell you though i do not have head studs and still have even compression across all 4 cylinders and its pretty close to where it should be (I have cams so it throws the numbers off somewhat). I found more power in my particular application.
In that thread I also mentioned that my load difference between race gas and higher boost (3psi more than that post) and 10* more timing only yielded a 25-30* increase in what load cell it was in. I would attribute all most all of that to the extra boost and not the extra timing. However as has been pointed out, the EGT's are certainly somewhat higher and despite knock it makes it less a highway or road race proposition as it does drag only.
I feel the max for street boost and good timing is probably 25-26 on a stock turbo with 92 or 93 and still maintain a little more reliability than what I am facing. I am in it for the long term though and will be sharing my results as I go along. I do also have a 3.5" IC and fairly cold air temps year round. That makes a big difference over someone trying this in the desert in the middle of summer with a stock FMIC.
JB
Jeff can you send me that info as well?
Edit: I am probably an idiot because load is correlated to airflow, isnt it?
Last edited by MR Turco; Mar 6, 2008 at 10:44 AM.
He is not in SoCal, he is in Norcal 
As Bryan said, you are running too rich. Here is what your AFR should look like on 91 octane gas on an Evo 9 with TBE and drop-in mods.
spool up around 13-12 AFR
Peak boost around 11.7-11.5 AFR
mid-range around 11.5-11.3 AFR
Top end around 11.2-10.9 AFR
Running 26-28 psi with the #65 pill should be doen with 100 octane gas. That is what Bryan was saying when he mentioned the higher boost.
You can run 2-3* of timing at peak boost on 91 octane w/o knock and 10-11* by redline. Your timing map looks good for 91 octane. Try to add a degree of timing up top and see if the car knocks. If it does, pull that degree back. That is when you know that you have reached the most timing advance that you can get on 91 octane.
I love guys like you
As Bryan said, you are running too rich. Here is what your AFR should look like on 91 octane gas on an Evo 9 with TBE and drop-in mods.
spool up around 13-12 AFR
Peak boost around 11.7-11.5 AFR
mid-range around 11.5-11.3 AFR
Top end around 11.2-10.9 AFR
Running 26-28 psi with the #65 pill should be doen with 100 octane gas. That is what Bryan was saying when he mentioned the higher boost.
You can run 2-3* of timing at peak boost on 91 octane w/o knock and 10-11* by redline. Your timing map looks good for 91 octane. Try to add a degree of timing up top and see if the car knocks. If it does, pull that degree back. That is when you know that you have reached the most timing advance that you can get on 91 octane.
I love guys like you
What AFR do you aim for on 93oct?
I dont see airflow as a variable in any of those equations? Am I missing something? Wouldnt you use the aiflow hz converted into lbs/min * 9.15, or is that what you are saying and i am missing it.
Jeff can you send me that info as well?
Edit: I am probably an idiot because load is correlated to airflow, isnt it?
Jeff can you send me that info as well?
Edit: I am probably an idiot because load is correlated to airflow, isnt it?
You're not an idiot Turco, I just left that variable out.
The old formula (as I do not think it is 100% correct all the time) is:
Hz/rpm*852=load...this is kind of shorthand if you will
Load is a function of airflow. In the thread that Eric started on looking for logs to correlate airflow mass, I think he included the hard math to convert hz to load based on air density, assumed VE, air temp, etc. I will look for the thread and bump it.
JB
The airflow numbers have been generated using the DSMLink variables.
The airflow number is "dumbed down" and won't tell you much. Most people use it to compare turbo output. The maf single will provide much more detail. If you are running an open element filter your reading maybe be tainted. When I was testing I found simply removing the plastic splash shield/tray threw my freq readings off especially at high speed. (I'm sticking with stock airbox and filter)
I think you guys that have to deal with 91 octane have the toughest job. I couldn't do it myself. If I didn't/couldn't run a healthy does of meth/alchy to compensate I would sell the car and get a C5 Z06.
I like to keep the turbo at 25psi. I like to keep my max timing to 20*. I like the most aggressive mivec I can get away with. I'm in love with my 100 octane mix of 93/110 leaded turbo blue! For $1 more per gallon I get to run 103 octane 24/7.
The airflow number is "dumbed down" and won't tell you much. Most people use it to compare turbo output. The maf single will provide much more detail. If you are running an open element filter your reading maybe be tainted. When I was testing I found simply removing the plastic splash shield/tray threw my freq readings off especially at high speed. (I'm sticking with stock airbox and filter)
I think you guys that have to deal with 91 octane have the toughest job. I couldn't do it myself. If I didn't/couldn't run a healthy does of meth/alchy to compensate I would sell the car and get a C5 Z06.
I like to keep the turbo at 25psi. I like to keep my max timing to 20*. I like the most aggressive mivec I can get away with. I'm in love with my 100 octane mix of 93/110 leaded turbo blue! For $1 more per gallon I get to run 103 octane 24/7.
so when u say 25-26 psi, on which rpm would this be???
what would the max boost at redline (7k) be for a stock turbo evo 9 on pump gas iyo???
btw, i believe exst manifold would yield great results improving airflow... giving higher loads at same boost level (better efficiency). FMIC along with piping would be the best upgrade after tbe & air filter imo...
Krgds+
