Zeus - where is the "misconception"?

Did you not see this dyno sheet - ???



Lets face facts square in the face. That is an insane amount of power for any evo with stock air box and no cams. In fact - its more power than I made on several Gt3037 equiped evos.

Going over 400 whp without cams means BIG power to me.

If you read last months Turbo Magazine you will see a dyno sheet of a fully equiped Stage 4 car with a Gt3076 and alcohol injection kit making similar numbers to what are being claimed in the above dyno sheet.

If they are claiming over 400 whp without cams them why should not people have expectataions of significant and real power gains ???

I am interested to see how the tuning goes this weekend with the other guys who bought this turbo.

 

You will be hard pressed to find a lot of people willing to pay for this turbo that have not already dropped the coin for cams... granted, there are a few, but not many.

 

What does that mean?

To me either it can make 440 whp without cams or it cant

440 whp is a lot of power - not something you will trifle about

Cams or no cams - thats a huge gain over stock

 

The dyno sheet here looks very different

 

so all these days and all this time and no one has real numbers?? I am lost.

 

Well, this is what will be on my car when I get tuned next weekend:

91 octane
TBE
3" 02 housing
stock exhaust mani--ported/coated
aftermarket intercooler
XEDE
LIC pipe
NO CAMS
NO CAM GEARS
NO ALKY
STOCK AIR BOX w/ drop in and hard pipe to turbo

Hopefully that will be close enough of a flash comparo for some people.

Oh yeah, fuel pump and 680cc injectors

 

Of course I "saw" the dyno... Don't be ridiculous. I've been running the turbo for a while myself. However, people are screaming for pump gas flash numbers... those are EMS race gas dynojet numbers (the over 400whp), and I don't see people getting those numbers on a flash. Yes this is a 700cfm capable turbo, however, you have to really crank up the whick to see 400whp performace. There are no excuses here. I'm just putting things in perspective.

Are we on the same page now?

 

We are on the same page.

Just for the record - on cars with stock engines and typical mods - we usuallly see very slight gains with a stand alone system over the reflash. Nominal gains of 15 - 20 whp are the most you could expect in ideal situation through the elimination of the MAF snesor and more agressive timing.

I think the point I am making is if it can make 441 whp without cams and with a a stock intake - I would expect at least 475 whp with cams and a aftermarket cone filter. That is a LOT of whp with stock head and intake, TB, fmic etc etc.

I am expecting to see massive whp gains based upon the representations of the dyno sheet which has been claimed.

 

it didn't make 441 with the stock intake, they pulled it off for that run.

and you think cams are worth 35whp? what cams? i haven't seen any net that.

and fwiw, i think 15-20whp is a pretty large amount.

I don't think anyone will see more than 450whp on this turbo on the same dyno(in its driven form-ie. air filter on). But we shall see!

 

That is correct. It made 420whp with the stock intake and a 3" inlet pipe from the box to the turbo. Still a damn big number though.

 

Oh, and I just thought you were being hard headed yet again...

I don't think you will be able to compare the tuning of this unit to the OE turbo. So I'd not be surprised to see flash tuners experience a "learning curve" with this unit. It really has a different dynamic of sorts. Remember, people screamed "snake oil" at your Dynoflash for quite some time (some still do ). So if you want to make an internet argument of it, I can use you for an example and probably use your own quotes (of when people said your tuning was full of SHlT) to prove my point. In this game 2+2 sometimes equals 4, and some times 5. The WR is an improvement over OE, and I'd bet the farm that Tym did not "inflate" his numbers as you seem to be insinuating.

 

I am not insinuating anything.

I got a phone call from another tuner who was asking questions about these 441 whp based upon what they were seeing. I am asking questions now myself as I am curious and need to know if this unit is good enough for a customer car I have here to tune.

I am as excited as the next evo community memeber if this turbo really can make 450 plus whp on a evo with basic mods. I think that would be great.

I am just trying to get to the bottom of this as it seems like something which I can not conceptualize. I have an open mind and I am excited to see the results.

As for my reflash and internet arguments, I dont see what if anything that has to do about the merrits of an aftermarket turbo. There are lots of idiots out there on the net who say a lot of stuipd things about a lot of subjects. Are you trying to say SHUT UP AL or I am going to slander your product ? I dont get it. Are you saying my reflash product is snake oil?

I am trying to have an inteligent conversation about a product which has great promise and which IMHO remains untested and unverified. I am excited to see the results and even more excited to tune and drive one soon so I can see for myself what all the buzz is about.

 

If they made 441 without cams with the limited mods posted above I would expect 470 with cams. Especially in the higher rpm range which this turbo appears to breath well in a good set of cams will yield significant gains.

On my 667 whp evo takeing the air filter off nets zero whp gains.

15 - 20 whp is a fairly large amount - - but its not 100 - 120 whp either

 

Al - Lets suppose this turbo makes only 30 to 40whp more than stock on pump and allows you to hold boost longer than a 10.5 equipped car.

Assuming one had Cams, Cam Gears, Exhaust, Fuel Mgmt etc - would you consider it a worthwhile mod for the money?

 

the numbers are on race gas. what's so hard to believe about 373whp on pump gas w/ AEM EMS? One of the dynos show that there's almost a 50whp gain up top. 373-50 = pretty damn close to what an 05 evo would make with 3" exhaust, boost controller and AEM EMS.