Intake manifold testing.
I'm not trying to point fingers here at anybody but I have to put my 2cents in here. Now myself I have not purchased any products for either Dave nor Magnus, so I'm biased really.
But 2 years ago I tuned an 2003 evo using the stock turbo, AEM EMS, daves FMIC, daves 3" TBE, and the stock intake manifold. We don't have an AWD dyno over here so the only testing we had was at our local track. But I did however did some back to back testing with this said evo.
With the stock intake manifold the best I could muster out of that car was an 11.9 @117mph at 24lbs falling to 19lbs. This car was very consistent from run to run, sometimes a 12.0 @117mph depending on traction and what not but the MPH was spot on every single pass it made down the track.
This evo owner turned around and purchased a Magnus intake manifold off of ebay. He brought the car over to me with the intake manifold. I installed it and we headed back out to the track, mind you that we have ran this car alot at the track using the stock intake manifold and it ran 11.9-12.0 @117mph on the dot every pass it made down the track.
Of course I had to retune the car with the new intake manifold, with the magnus manifold the mid range and lower end stayed pretty much the same, but above 6000rpm the car went .3-.4 leaner on the wideband, that told me right there the car made more power up top and was expected, so I got the AFR's back inline where they were before.
Headed out to the track on even a hotter day then what we have ran it before. Same boost level at 24lbs falling to 20lbs this time around rather then falling to 19lbs. Same ARF's, Same timing as I did nothing with the timing map. Same fuel, same tires, same everything except the intake manifold change.
Stock turbo 24lbs falling to 19lbs/stock intake manifold=11.9 @117mph
stock turbo 24lbs falling to 20lbs/magnus intake manifold=11.6 @121mph
I over layed the logs with the stock intake manifold and the magnus, and as expected above 6000rpm the magnus manifold logs were out running the stock intake manifold. As most of you know when drag racing in an Evo the RPM's don't drop much below 5500rpm between shifts.
As I stated before, I'm biased here and have not purchased anything from either company's, I am not a Dave nut swinger nor a magnus nut swinger.
But the thing I find very odd and very funny is that there have been tons of people that bought magnus's manifold, put it on the car, ran it and loved it. Nobody and not one person ever came out on the boards and said "hey I installed this magnus intake and the car got slower, or lost power on the dyno" That was until this drama mess all started. Now why is that?? I'm a bit confused here
If the manifold work before on the evo's why isn't now all of a sudden?? can anyone please explain that to me?
I wanted to get in here and state some facts that I have seen with my own 2 eyes, I have nothing to gain nor loose from this as I don't do business with either one of these two. I think there are alot of followers here and people are just jumping the band wagon. Even people that don't even have either parts from Dave nor Magnus.
This will be my only post in here as I don't tend to get involved in this kind of drama, but this is going too far now. I know there are tons of people that can attest to Magnus's manifold, but are too scared to even post or say anything. Myself, I don't own one, never have, so I am very biased here.
But 2 years ago I tuned an 2003 evo using the stock turbo, AEM EMS, daves FMIC, daves 3" TBE, and the stock intake manifold. We don't have an AWD dyno over here so the only testing we had was at our local track. But I did however did some back to back testing with this said evo.
With the stock intake manifold the best I could muster out of that car was an 11.9 @117mph at 24lbs falling to 19lbs. This car was very consistent from run to run, sometimes a 12.0 @117mph depending on traction and what not but the MPH was spot on every single pass it made down the track.
This evo owner turned around and purchased a Magnus intake manifold off of ebay. He brought the car over to me with the intake manifold. I installed it and we headed back out to the track, mind you that we have ran this car alot at the track using the stock intake manifold and it ran 11.9-12.0 @117mph on the dot every pass it made down the track.
Of course I had to retune the car with the new intake manifold, with the magnus manifold the mid range and lower end stayed pretty much the same, but above 6000rpm the car went .3-.4 leaner on the wideband, that told me right there the car made more power up top and was expected, so I got the AFR's back inline where they were before.
Headed out to the track on even a hotter day then what we have ran it before. Same boost level at 24lbs falling to 20lbs this time around rather then falling to 19lbs. Same ARF's, Same timing as I did nothing with the timing map. Same fuel, same tires, same everything except the intake manifold change.
Stock turbo 24lbs falling to 19lbs/stock intake manifold=11.9 @117mph
stock turbo 24lbs falling to 20lbs/magnus intake manifold=11.6 @121mph
I over layed the logs with the stock intake manifold and the magnus, and as expected above 6000rpm the magnus manifold logs were out running the stock intake manifold. As most of you know when drag racing in an Evo the RPM's don't drop much below 5500rpm between shifts.
As I stated before, I'm biased here and have not purchased anything from either company's, I am not a Dave nut swinger nor a magnus nut swinger.
But the thing I find very odd and very funny is that there have been tons of people that bought magnus's manifold, put it on the car, ran it and loved it. Nobody and not one person ever came out on the boards and said "hey I installed this magnus intake and the car got slower, or lost power on the dyno" That was until this drama mess all started. Now why is that?? I'm a bit confused here
If the manifold work before on the evo's why isn't now all of a sudden?? can anyone please explain that to me?
I wanted to get in here and state some facts that I have seen with my own 2 eyes, I have nothing to gain nor loose from this as I don't do business with either one of these two. I think there are alot of followers here and people are just jumping the band wagon. Even people that don't even have either parts from Dave nor Magnus.
This will be my only post in here as I don't tend to get involved in this kind of drama, but this is going too far now. I know there are tons of people that can attest to Magnus's manifold, but are too scared to even post or say anything. Myself, I don't own one, never have, so I am very biased here.
Well i personally think Dave is doing the right thing in the end. Now the vendors that sent him the manifolds are doing the wrong thing to tell him not to post results. Everybody knows what manifolds Dave has! So any results that don't show up "because the vendor doesn't want them posted" is pretty self explanatory. If there manifold didn't make the most power out of all of them then they are going to have to take a hard look at if they want to post the results and possibly loose customer base because they didn't make as much power and don't want to share the results or just look bad because everybody knows the only reason why you wouldn't want to share the results.
IMO no matter what the results are and if you did not make the most TQ/HP you should still post the results and then the right thing to do would start a new thread about the progress to fix the problem!
Chris
IMO no matter what the results are and if you did not make the most TQ/HP you should still post the results and then the right thing to do would start a new thread about the progress to fix the problem!
Chris
Account Disabled
iTrader: (38)
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,319
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
evil your testing sounds good at a glance but you have many more variables at work there than David's testing.
driver: launching, shifting speed, shift points, weather, track prep/traction etc...just to name a few.
doing it on the same dyno with a careful eye on the ambient/coolant temps/afr/boost etc... is the best way to do it.
p.s. was that the "old" magnus design or the "new" that you had success with?
driver: launching, shifting speed, shift points, weather, track prep/traction etc...just to name a few.
doing it on the same dyno with a careful eye on the ambient/coolant temps/afr/boost etc... is the best way to do it.
p.s. was that the "old" magnus design or the "new" that you had success with?
evil your testing sounds good at a glance but you have many more variables at work there than David's testing.
driver: launching, shifting speed, shift points, weather, track prep/traction etc...just to name a few.
doing it on the same dyno with a careful eye on the ambient/coolant temps/afr/boost etc... is the best way to do it.
p.s. was that the "old" magnus design or the "new" that you had success with?
driver: launching, shifting speed, shift points, weather, track prep/traction etc...just to name a few.
doing it on the same dyno with a careful eye on the ambient/coolant temps/afr/boost etc... is the best way to do it.
p.s. was that the "old" magnus design or the "new" that you had success with?
It was the old manifold, and yes I agree with you 100% that our testing could vary on several different things, but the car did not get any slower that was for sure, it picked up and that was my only point. I wish we could do more testing using an AWD dyno, but we are not lucky enough to have one local to us, the closest one to us is 8 hours away
I just wanted to add that in there for the sake of it, that was all. But I do agree with you 100% that there are too many variables in there. But our track test did show positive numbers regardless.
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
From: 900 pounds lighter than a X.
It was the old manifold, and yes I agree with you 100% that our testing could vary on several different things, but the car did not get any slower that was for sure, it picked up and that was my only point. I wish we could do more testing using an AWD dyno, but we are not lucky enough to have one local to us, the closest one to us is 8 hours away I just wanted to add that in there for the sake of it, that was all. But I do agree with you 100% that there are too many variables in there. But our track test did show positive numbers regardless.
I just wanted to add that in there for the sake of it, that was all. But I do agree with you 100% that there are too many variables in there. But our track test did show positive numbers regardless.
OK, here is the long awaited AMS VSR result. So now you guys can calm down a bit
This intake was tested the same day as the stock/stock set up and the Magnus. The weather conditions were mid 30's and raining hard all day. I'd like to note that when we tested the DI intake yesterday the weather conditions were 30 degrees and snowy. So there was a slight difference in weather as I couldn't do all this testing on the same day, not enough time.
I spoke with Martin at AMS this morning and we were comparing notes. His results have been a little higher numbers in his testing. After talking for awhile he said he tunes all of the cars they have done with the AEM boost controller. With this he is able to hold exactly the same boost level from start to finish. So his peak boost could be 33 psi at 5500 rpm and then at 8,000 rpm he is able to still have 33 psi.
In my case I always use a manual controller. My peak boost on the test of his manifold was 33.61 psi and at 8,000 rpm was down to 29.95 psi. This could easily account for 10-15+ whp less at 8,000 rpm during my testing compared to results he has seen.
After the install was complete I immediately noticed that the AFR's went lean in the upper rpms, over 6500 the car needed more fuel. This is the sign from the horsepower gods that the car is going to make more power. I got the AFR's back inline with the baseline and the outcome was an increase in horsepower and torque.
Horsepower is up by 20 whp and torque is up by 6 ft lbs. The increase in power is from 5700 rpm all the way to the end of the test at 8,000 rpm. This is the widest increase in powerband of the intakes tested so far.
Here is the dyno sheet:
This intake was tested the same day as the stock/stock set up and the Magnus. The weather conditions were mid 30's and raining hard all day. I'd like to note that when we tested the DI intake yesterday the weather conditions were 30 degrees and snowy. So there was a slight difference in weather as I couldn't do all this testing on the same day, not enough time.
I spoke with Martin at AMS this morning and we were comparing notes. His results have been a little higher numbers in his testing. After talking for awhile he said he tunes all of the cars they have done with the AEM boost controller. With this he is able to hold exactly the same boost level from start to finish. So his peak boost could be 33 psi at 5500 rpm and then at 8,000 rpm he is able to still have 33 psi.
In my case I always use a manual controller. My peak boost on the test of his manifold was 33.61 psi and at 8,000 rpm was down to 29.95 psi. This could easily account for 10-15+ whp less at 8,000 rpm during my testing compared to results he has seen.
After the install was complete I immediately noticed that the AFR's went lean in the upper rpms, over 6500 the car needed more fuel. This is the sign from the horsepower gods that the car is going to make more power. I got the AFR's back inline with the baseline and the outcome was an increase in horsepower and torque.
Horsepower is up by 20 whp and torque is up by 6 ft lbs. The increase in power is from 5700 rpm all the way to the end of the test at 8,000 rpm. This is the widest increase in powerband of the intakes tested so far.
Here is the dyno sheet:
Just some things to note. When we heard Dave was doing an intake manifold test we volunteered to put ours into the mix. Dave is HIGHLY respected by everyone here at AMS and you would have to live under a rock not to know that we get along VERY well.
Dave's Tests were not wrong at all. In addition we just wanted to post up a few back to back tests that we had done on our own when testing our manifolds.
First Here is a quote from Martin on the top of Testing our VSR and the developement of it
"The boost curve was not constant between the manifold. The boost at redline was higher on the stock manifold , and the boost at redline was lower on our manifold. This is a function of the manual boost controller. Our testing and most of the cars that we do get an AEM boost control solenoid and we control it through AEM. With AEM boost control properly setup you can hold a flat boost curve and this would have made quite a difference at redline. I think Dave said the boost was almost 2psi lower on our manifold, so that could attribute to 15-20whp difference at redline. The loss in low end power is a little more than we’re used to seeing but again, ever setup is different and reacts differently. Honestly I would expect more along the lines of a 25-35whp difference at peak on this setup and even more at redline.
Another thing to take into consideration is valve timing events since intake manifold runner length correlates to intake valve timing events. Basically this is the result that Dave got on his particular setup, but the results can change depending on many variables. Dave’s results are on the low end of the spectrum I would say. Here are all the results we could gather on our end. These are all customer cars (one is mine) and the changing variable was the VSR. I’m posting them all and not holding back any so you can see the results. The graphs should have comments next to them to show the setup (turbo, ect).
When I designed this manifold we went through many different revision and test to come up with this design. We tested; runner length, runner taper angle, plenum sizes, plenum to runner transition – radiused, straight, raised radiused (the final design). We spent a lot of time and money doing these tests and this was the best compromise. Sure the larger plenum made a little more power, but it hurt spool and bottom end power. That’s why we offer a bigger plenum for drag applications. "
Now here are the graphs that Martin was talking about.
keep in mind each chart below is showing a car with a certain criteria of modifications with and without a VSR.
Sample #1
2003 EVO VIII
AMS 50 Trim Kit
AEM EMS
Stock Motor
Pump Gas
Before and After an AMS VSR
On this car the spool was a littler later then we normally see but it did pick up about 20 whp on top for a pump gas 50 trim car. Very nice gain
Sample #2
1991 Galant VR4
APEXi AFC
Small 16G
Stock Motor
Pump Gas
Before and After An AMS VSR
This car is running a very small turbo, small then a stock EVO VIII Turbo but even so substantial gains were made
Sample #3
2003 EVO VIII
Stock Turbo
TurboXS Utech Tuning
100 Octane
Before and After an AMS VSR
Even on the stock turbo and with UTEC the VSR was able to pick up 12 whp!
Sample #4
2003 EVO VIII
AMS 50Trim
Built AMS 2.0
Open Source Flash
pump Gas
Before and After an AMS VSR
This is pretty standard Gains from what we have seen with the VSR. Spool varried just slightly but the car picked up as much as 25HP on just pump gas with a 50 Trim.
And the last subject is Martins Personal Car
2003 EVO VIII
AMS GT30R kit
AMS 2.3RR
AEM EMS
Pump Gas
Before and After an AMS VSR
Here you can see an almost 50 WHP gain near redline!
This is a perfect example of everything working just right with the VSR. Again this is just before and after results of the VSR and tuning to accommodate it.
There you have it.
Any other questions can be posted in here or sent via PM.
Thank you again to David and Buschur racing for working on this test.
Eric
Dave's Tests were not wrong at all. In addition we just wanted to post up a few back to back tests that we had done on our own when testing our manifolds.
First Here is a quote from Martin on the top of Testing our VSR and the developement of it
"The boost curve was not constant between the manifold. The boost at redline was higher on the stock manifold , and the boost at redline was lower on our manifold. This is a function of the manual boost controller. Our testing and most of the cars that we do get an AEM boost control solenoid and we control it through AEM. With AEM boost control properly setup you can hold a flat boost curve and this would have made quite a difference at redline. I think Dave said the boost was almost 2psi lower on our manifold, so that could attribute to 15-20whp difference at redline. The loss in low end power is a little more than we’re used to seeing but again, ever setup is different and reacts differently. Honestly I would expect more along the lines of a 25-35whp difference at peak on this setup and even more at redline.
Another thing to take into consideration is valve timing events since intake manifold runner length correlates to intake valve timing events. Basically this is the result that Dave got on his particular setup, but the results can change depending on many variables. Dave’s results are on the low end of the spectrum I would say. Here are all the results we could gather on our end. These are all customer cars (one is mine) and the changing variable was the VSR. I’m posting them all and not holding back any so you can see the results. The graphs should have comments next to them to show the setup (turbo, ect).
When I designed this manifold we went through many different revision and test to come up with this design. We tested; runner length, runner taper angle, plenum sizes, plenum to runner transition – radiused, straight, raised radiused (the final design). We spent a lot of time and money doing these tests and this was the best compromise. Sure the larger plenum made a little more power, but it hurt spool and bottom end power. That’s why we offer a bigger plenum for drag applications. "
Now here are the graphs that Martin was talking about.
keep in mind each chart below is showing a car with a certain criteria of modifications with and without a VSR.
Sample #1
2003 EVO VIII
AMS 50 Trim Kit
AEM EMS
Stock Motor
Pump Gas
Before and After an AMS VSR
On this car the spool was a littler later then we normally see but it did pick up about 20 whp on top for a pump gas 50 trim car. Very nice gain
Sample #2
1991 Galant VR4
APEXi AFC
Small 16G
Stock Motor
Pump Gas
Before and After An AMS VSR
This car is running a very small turbo, small then a stock EVO VIII Turbo but even so substantial gains were made
Sample #3
2003 EVO VIII
Stock Turbo
TurboXS Utech Tuning
100 Octane
Before and After an AMS VSR
Even on the stock turbo and with UTEC the VSR was able to pick up 12 whp!
Sample #4
2003 EVO VIII
AMS 50Trim
Built AMS 2.0
Open Source Flash
pump Gas
Before and After an AMS VSR
This is pretty standard Gains from what we have seen with the VSR. Spool varried just slightly but the car picked up as much as 25HP on just pump gas with a 50 Trim.
And the last subject is Martins Personal Car
2003 EVO VIII
AMS GT30R kit
AMS 2.3RR
AEM EMS
Pump Gas
Before and After an AMS VSR
Here you can see an almost 50 WHP gain near redline!
This is a perfect example of everything working just right with the VSR. Again this is just before and after results of the VSR and tuning to accommodate it.
There you have it.
Any other questions can be posted in here or sent via PM.
Thank you again to David and Buschur racing for working on this test.
Eric
Account Disabled
iTrader: (38)
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,319
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
It was the old manifold, and yes I agree with you 100% that our testing could vary on several different things, but the car did not get any slower that was for sure, it picked up and that was my only point. I wish we could do more testing using an AWD dyno, but we are not lucky enough to have one local to us, the closest one to us is 8 hours away I just wanted to add that in there for the sake of it, that was all. But I do agree with you 100% that there are too many variables in there. But our track test did show positive numbers regardless.
I just wanted to add that in there for the sake of it, that was all. But I do agree with you 100% that there are too many variables in there. But our track test did show positive numbers regardless.It's hard to ignore the gains you made for sure, I just wonder how much can be attributed to the intake.
Thanks for the comparison AMS. It seems as though for the most part our results are very similar. The first 3 charts that you posted were a little less than my results, the 4th one made an additional 4 whp over mine. Martin's car is a freaking beast though. Those are some very nice gains on that one.
Thanks for allowing me to test the VSR, works very-very good. Easy to see you did your homework on it.
Thanks for allowing me to test the VSR, works very-very good. Easy to see you did your homework on it.
Account Disabled
iTrader: (38)
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,319
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
nice review on the AMS VSR...looks like it's good for some nice gains on any turbo setup.
and just to be clear David, was this test between the stock intake/tb and the AMS VSR?
*edit* nevermind, I just noticed your notes on the bottom of the dyno sheet
and just to be clear David, was this test between the stock intake/tb and the AMS VSR?
*edit* nevermind, I just noticed your notes on the bottom of the dyno sheet
I imagine that if you were to add the 65mm TB to the AMS VSR intake, you'd get a slightly bigger increase in torque overall, which would then mirror my experience with it (i.e. going from stock/stock to VSR/65mm TB).
l8r)
l8r)
Thanks again Dave and AMS! Bottom line is as long as your intake manifold will make more power then stock nomatter what company is making it will sell. For me anyway im just looking for a product that is going to make more power then stock and from there i will most likely go with what i believe will benefit my setup the greatest. Every car is different and every car is going to respond different but i would hope that every setup and car will make more power then stock.
If the manifold i would say make within +-2-5whp its going to be more of a pricing decision and a personal liking of the design then anything else.
Good work guys and i applaud you for coming clean on the results!
Bring on the Hypertune!
Chris
If the manifold i would say make within +-2-5whp its going to be more of a pricing decision and a personal liking of the design then anything else.
Good work guys and i applaud you for coming clean on the results!
Bring on the Hypertune!
Chris