Intake manifold testing.
Without a doubt the intakes would benefit from the 65 mm throttle body being bolted to them. Since I did the baselines with the stock throttle body though I am trying to keep things all the same.
When I am done and decide what I am doing to my own car then I will put the 65 mm throttle body back on and I will be doing some real dyno work with some more aggressive tuning and seeing how much power I can make. I expecting well over 700 whp when this is done with my car. That should be good for 9.30's at close to 155 mph.
One last thing. The Hypertune I am dyno'ing last. Next week. The Hypertune only uses their throttle body which is 3". They also feel the FMIC and upper i/c pipe need to be 3" too. It also only works with their fuel rail which has NPT ends on it. So it is a major change for me to test it and the reason it is getting tested last. I am not going to change the FMIC/upper i/c pipe. That is too many changes for a back to back test.
Looking forward to testing it though.
Next up is the stock intake, modified, with the larger plenum. Car is on the dyno right now.
When I am done and decide what I am doing to my own car then I will put the 65 mm throttle body back on and I will be doing some real dyno work with some more aggressive tuning and seeing how much power I can make. I expecting well over 700 whp when this is done with my car. That should be good for 9.30's at close to 155 mph.
One last thing. The Hypertune I am dyno'ing last. Next week. The Hypertune only uses their throttle body which is 3". They also feel the FMIC and upper i/c pipe need to be 3" too. It also only works with their fuel rail which has NPT ends on it. So it is a major change for me to test it and the reason it is getting tested last. I am not going to change the FMIC/upper i/c pipe. That is too many changes for a back to back test.
Looking forward to testing it though.
Next up is the stock intake, modified, with the larger plenum. Car is on the dyno right now.
Driven Innovations intake VS. stock intake, stock throttle body.
So, the company that wanted to remain silent was Driven Innovations. I honestly had never heard of the company before he contacted me. I guess in reality he has been around for quite some time. His product does perform very good.
We did the test this morning and on the first pull the AFR's went substantially leaner from 5000-8000 rpm. At that point I knew it was going to make more power. The AFR's went into the mid 12's from the mid 11's they were at. The boost was also higher hitting 35 psi. I re-adjusted the boost to bring it back down to the baseline test numbers and then added quite a bit of fuel to also get those back into line. This is NOT a tuning competition and I am not trying to make maximum power. In the case of this intake though the boost did get too high and the AFR's did go lean enough that it would make a power difference. I then made some quick adjustments to get an idea of what JUST the new intake manifold was doing. In the end my base line boost with the stock intake manifold was 32.9 psi and with Driven Innovations the peak boost was 32.2 psi. So .7 less boost pressure. It is still up on power. With some additional boost the midrange and top end would be improved too (for sure as I know what it made at 35 psi).
So here is the dyno sheet. This is the same baseline pull I am using to compare all the intake manifolds.
Bottom line is the Driven Innovations picked up 24 whp with .7 less boost and lost 10 ft lbs of torque. Had I worked really hard to get the boost exact that 10 ft lbs would have been gained back easily.
Finally numbers 630 whp-470 ft lbs of torque.
So, the company that wanted to remain silent was Driven Innovations. I honestly had never heard of the company before he contacted me. I guess in reality he has been around for quite some time. His product does perform very good.
We did the test this morning and on the first pull the AFR's went substantially leaner from 5000-8000 rpm. At that point I knew it was going to make more power. The AFR's went into the mid 12's from the mid 11's they were at. The boost was also higher hitting 35 psi. I re-adjusted the boost to bring it back down to the baseline test numbers and then added quite a bit of fuel to also get those back into line. This is NOT a tuning competition and I am not trying to make maximum power. In the case of this intake though the boost did get too high and the AFR's did go lean enough that it would make a power difference. I then made some quick adjustments to get an idea of what JUST the new intake manifold was doing. In the end my base line boost with the stock intake manifold was 32.9 psi and with Driven Innovations the peak boost was 32.2 psi. So .7 less boost pressure. It is still up on power. With some additional boost the midrange and top end would be improved too (for sure as I know what it made at 35 psi).
So here is the dyno sheet. This is the same baseline pull I am using to compare all the intake manifolds.
Bottom line is the Driven Innovations picked up 24 whp with .7 less boost and lost 10 ft lbs of torque. Had I worked really hard to get the boost exact that 10 ft lbs would have been gained back easily.
Finally numbers 630 whp-470 ft lbs of torque.
Looks like The Driven manifold and the AMS are very very close in power. When i get on the dyno i will be running the AEM boost solenoid which should keep the boost very consistent. Awesome work David thank you for the testing you have been doing
A little note on the graphs that we posted. Most of those runs where with boost controller that could not hold a specific boost, just a target wastegate duty cycle so boost would drop off. My car (the last dyno graph), would hold boost steady to redline so that could be a reason it made more power at redline.
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Interesting testing. Thanks again Dave.
It took me some welding of the throttle body bracket and machining of the adapter plate to get my Magnus Race installed. One long day of work. I'll be sooo sad if the Magnus Race does not perform well in Paul's test.
Couple questions:
Am I correct in saying that AMS claimed no loss in the low end with their intake mani? It seems to me a noticeable loss in spool in all the tests.
What were your past results doing a test like this with stock intake mani versus ported stocker?
It took me some welding of the throttle body bracket and machining of the adapter plate to get my Magnus Race installed. One long day of work. I'll be sooo sad if the Magnus Race does not perform well in Paul's test.
Couple questions:
Am I correct in saying that AMS claimed no loss in the low end with their intake mani? It seems to me a noticeable loss in spool in all the tests.
What were your past results doing a test like this with stock intake mani versus ported stocker?
Interesting testing. Thanks again Dave.
It took me some welding of the throttle body bracket and machining of the adapter plate to get my Magnus Race installed. One long day of work. I'll be sooo sad if the Magnus Race does not perform well in Paul's test.
Couple questions:
Am I correct in saying that AMS claimed no loss in the low end with their intake mani? It seems to me a noticeable loss in spool in all the tests.
What were your past results doing a test like this with stock intake mani versus ported stocker?
It took me some welding of the throttle body bracket and machining of the adapter plate to get my Magnus Race installed. One long day of work. I'll be sooo sad if the Magnus Race does not perform well in Paul's test.
Couple questions:
Am I correct in saying that AMS claimed no loss in the low end with their intake mani? It seems to me a noticeable loss in spool in all the tests.
What were your past results doing a test like this with stock intake mani versus ported stocker?
Now with a much bigger turbo the bigger plenum will help with top end power.
Interesting testing. Thanks again Dave.
It took me some welding of the throttle body bracket and machining of the adapter plate to get my Magnus Race installed. One long day of work. I'll be sooo sad if the Magnus Race does not perform well in Paul's test.
Couple questions:
Am I correct in saying that AMS claimed no loss in the low end with their intake mani? It seems to me a noticeable loss in spool in all the tests.
What were your past results doing a test like this with stock intake mani versus ported stocker?
It took me some welding of the throttle body bracket and machining of the adapter plate to get my Magnus Race installed. One long day of work. I'll be sooo sad if the Magnus Race does not perform well in Paul's test.
Couple questions:
Am I correct in saying that AMS claimed no loss in the low end with their intake mani? It seems to me a noticeable loss in spool in all the tests.
What were your past results doing a test like this with stock intake mani versus ported stocker?
I don't think you viewed the graphs correctly or did not read the notes before them
In the first graph spool was worse then we typically have seen here. Every car reacts differently and as Martin stated Camshaft selection can play a big part in how the VSR reacts.
the second graph spool got a little better but keep in mind this is a turbo that is smaller then a stock EVO VIII turbo... and thats a large plenum to fill.
The Third test is on a stock turbo evo and you can see very little loss in spool and gains everywhere past 4000 RPM
The fourth graph as almost no difference in spool and HP and Torque are increased EVERYWHERE once the turbo kicks in just past 4K
The last graph is again a perfect example of what the VSR can do when dialed in just right. Less then 200 rpm of spool difference and the gains are just ridiculous after the turbo hits. HUGE GAINS
The main reason we put up so many examples is to show that the VSR can react differently on different cars. You can read Martin's description to help explain this.
Eric
Last edited by AutoMotoSports; Feb 8, 2008 at 01:25 PM.
STOCK INTAKE WITH LARGE PLENUM WELDED ON/STOCK THROTTLE BODY
This was a weired one.
Final numbers were 613 whp and 458 ft lbs. The only gains were at 7300+ rpms. The rest of the chart lost power over the stock intake.
First thing I noticed was a HUGE change in AFR's. The car from 5300 to 7500 was WAY rich. The odd thing was after about 7500 the car went very lean.
So the fuel curve after tuning ends up looking WAY nuts. Comes up around 5400 and then has a huge dip in it until 7500 where it goes back up very quickly. Bottom line is, this idea doesn't work very well.
I wasn't going to post anymore dyno sheets with AFR/Boost on them but since this sheet is how I printed/scanned it I will. Run #1 is the baseline, Run #2 is the big plenum.
This is the 5th dyno pull after dialing in the boost and AFR's close enough to stop.
This was a weired one.
Final numbers were 613 whp and 458 ft lbs. The only gains were at 7300+ rpms. The rest of the chart lost power over the stock intake.
First thing I noticed was a HUGE change in AFR's. The car from 5300 to 7500 was WAY rich. The odd thing was after about 7500 the car went very lean.
So the fuel curve after tuning ends up looking WAY nuts. Comes up around 5400 and then has a huge dip in it until 7500 where it goes back up very quickly. Bottom line is, this idea doesn't work very well.
I wasn't going to post anymore dyno sheets with AFR/Boost on them but since this sheet is how I printed/scanned it I will. Run #1 is the baseline, Run #2 is the big plenum.
This is the 5th dyno pull after dialing in the boost and AFR's close enough to stop.
STOCK INTAKE WITH LARGE PLENUM WELDED ON/STOCK THROTTLE BODY
This was a weired one.
Final numbers were 613 whp and 458 ft lbs. The only gains were at 7300+ rpms. The rest of the chart lost power over the stock intake.
First thing I noticed was a HUGE change in AFR's. The car from 5300 to 7500 was WAY rich. The odd thing was after about 7500 the car went very lean.
So the fuel curve after tuning ends up looking WAY nuts. Comes up around 5400 and then has a huge dip in it until 7500 where it goes back up very quickly. Bottom line is, this idea doesn't work very well.
I wasn't going to post anymore dyno sheets with AFR/Boost on them but since this sheet is how I printed/scanned it I will. Run #1 is the baseline, Run #2 is the big plenum.
This is the 5th dyno pull after dialing in the boost and AFR's close enough to stop.
This was a weired one.
Final numbers were 613 whp and 458 ft lbs. The only gains were at 7300+ rpms. The rest of the chart lost power over the stock intake.
First thing I noticed was a HUGE change in AFR's. The car from 5300 to 7500 was WAY rich. The odd thing was after about 7500 the car went very lean.
So the fuel curve after tuning ends up looking WAY nuts. Comes up around 5400 and then has a huge dip in it until 7500 where it goes back up very quickly. Bottom line is, this idea doesn't work very well.
I wasn't going to post anymore dyno sheets with AFR/Boost on them but since this sheet is how I printed/scanned it I will. Run #1 is the baseline, Run #2 is the big plenum.
This is the 5th dyno pull after dialing in the boost and AFR's close enough to stop.
So Dave, does this mean that the design could work eventually w/ some more R&D or that the stock ported intake manifold is an already great design to not mess w/, but only port?
Dave,
Thank you very much for taking your time and testing my manifold!
I can assure any customer of mine won’t be disappointed with my product! I engineered this manifold as well as many others, to name a few: Mercedes Benz, Honda-B and K series, Ford, DSM, and the fastest BMW in the USA runs one of my manifolds! So as you can see I have plenty of experiance with manifolds and many other performance products!
I do this as my hobby because I love to make and design things the right way! I don’t cut corners and I don’t compromise!
Bottom line is that My Driven Innovations manifold made more power than AMS At less boost! Almost by 2 psi. I can guarantee that the power under the curve is same or better than theirs! If anyone has any doubts I can setup another test to show that my manifold performs better than other!
To be honest! There is waaay to much politics involved here! I understand that AMS has huge overhead (30+ people) and I’m just an individual. So what do you expect from them? They have to support their business.
If anyone has any questions please PM me!
I will be a Vendor on here really soon.
Thank you,
Tom
Driven Innovations
Thank you very much for taking your time and testing my manifold!
I can assure any customer of mine won’t be disappointed with my product! I engineered this manifold as well as many others, to name a few: Mercedes Benz, Honda-B and K series, Ford, DSM, and the fastest BMW in the USA runs one of my manifolds! So as you can see I have plenty of experiance with manifolds and many other performance products!
I do this as my hobby because I love to make and design things the right way! I don’t cut corners and I don’t compromise!
Bottom line is that My Driven Innovations manifold made more power than AMS At less boost! Almost by 2 psi. I can guarantee that the power under the curve is same or better than theirs! If anyone has any doubts I can setup another test to show that my manifold performs better than other!
To be honest! There is waaay to much politics involved here! I understand that AMS has huge overhead (30+ people) and I’m just an individual. So what do you expect from them? They have to support their business.
If anyone has any questions please PM me!
I will be a Vendor on here really soon.
Thank you,
Tom
Driven Innovations
Tom/AMS/Magnus/Hypertune or any other vendors that are designing and selling IMs:
Would any of you care to post up a screenshot of the CFD analysis that was done on your design or even actual flowbench data? I would like to see the flow differences from the 1st runner to the last runner, especially with the manifolds without a tapered plenum. I would imagine there would be up to a 10% mass airflow difference from runner 1 to runner 4 in some designs, causing the runner furtherst from the TB to be richer than the runner closest to the TB.
I think data like a flow analysis would help several people in the community understand why the manifolds are engineered the way they are and which manifolds have the least discrepancy in per runner airflow.
Eric
Would any of you care to post up a screenshot of the CFD analysis that was done on your design or even actual flowbench data? I would like to see the flow differences from the 1st runner to the last runner, especially with the manifolds without a tapered plenum. I would imagine there would be up to a 10% mass airflow difference from runner 1 to runner 4 in some designs, causing the runner furtherst from the TB to be richer than the runner closest to the TB.
I think data like a flow analysis would help several people in the community understand why the manifolds are engineered the way they are and which manifolds have the least discrepancy in per runner airflow.
Eric
Last edited by l2r99gst; Feb 8, 2008 at 02:11 PM.
Okay umm no need to get into a pissing match! DrivenInovation your manifold is beautiful there is no doubt about that and i love how you have the 8 injector design. AMS manifold is a piece of art in itself. Bottom line is they both make great power and is going to make the custom happy with there decision.
DrivenInovation you have a PM!
From my research the top three manifolds i have found are the DrivenInovation, AMS and Hyptertune. And that is in no perticular order just those are the three that the little i know shows me the best design and best quality of worksmanship.
David Thanks for the great information you are providing. I cant wait for the Hypertune manifold but im kind of in the same boat as you. After talking to them they will not change anything about what they have. No dual rail, only there fuel rail "which i like how the feed is in the middle" Only there throttle body but hey maybe there is a reason we shall see i guess.
Chris
DrivenInovation you have a PM!
From my research the top three manifolds i have found are the DrivenInovation, AMS and Hyptertune. And that is in no perticular order just those are the three that the little i know shows me the best design and best quality of worksmanship.
David Thanks for the great information you are providing. I cant wait for the Hypertune manifold but im kind of in the same boat as you. After talking to them they will not change anything about what they have. No dual rail, only there fuel rail "which i like how the feed is in the middle" Only there throttle body but hey maybe there is a reason we shall see i guess.
Chris