[QUOTE]Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
[B]For one, deep staging doesn't matter]

You are totally talking out your ****.

I bracket raced for years in a car that ran consistent 12.30's....

I know the effects of staging deep or shallow first hand.

obviously you dont.

as somebody mentioned earlier, if you wanted a car solely for drag racing, mitsubishi would have maket the ir 1/4 mile times instead of their hp rating. They also would have given a clutch that would last as well! Hopefully!!!

Besides, this post is about comparable hp figures, not about 1/4 mile times. If it was about ET, we would be in the drag racing forum.

 

No, you judge power by a dyno.

how much power would your car make if you drop it out a plane from 30,000 ft?


****ing funny! It's amazing all the **** one see's posted on this website!

 

Completely agree...my only point being that showing a timeslip (drag) as a definitive means of performance is hardly a means of showing the customer the type of performance they can expect - unless the customer wants to build a drag car.

I agree that a car is subjected to similar streeses, though again, its not a common occurance. To me, the car that can successfully surive a track day with 2 or 3 30 minute stints shows alot for its reliability...although a hard blast on the street can be similar, I for one still think a track day is asking the car to do a bit more, espcially in terms of longer term sustained WOT runs under full boost.

I also agree with what some have stated about trap speed and power..there is no arguing that the trap speed is as accurate a measurement of a cars power as any other tool out there. Dyno's are great in their own right as well, and like everything else, there is room for error and manipulation. None of it is an exact unbiased indicator by any means - they simply are accurate when viewed relative to themselves.

 

You mean by those of us who race every weekend? If you think dynos numbers are more accurate for determining power then 1/4 mile MPH, your a moron. I can tell you which one its easier to fudge the numbers on, guess which?


As for WOT, of course deepstaging affects times, I meant it does not matter in that I hope no one uses that kind of "trickery"(calling it that because it is typically not used on the average test and tune day, or any non competitive event) to fudge numbers, and even then, the MPH, which is all that matters for determining power, is still about the same.

MPH is power

ET is driving skill

 

You have obviously never driven from San Francisco to LA with Shiv in his EVO!! I doubt a 30 minute track session would comes close to that torture test his Evo endured.

 

Dynos are quite easy to manipulate to show greater power than is really being made. Track trap speeds are not. Not to say that anyone here is unscrupulous, but some people will do anything to get your business instead of someone else.

I always stage shallow to get my best possible E/T. But I've never heard or seen that the difference is as much as 0.2 seconds. Either way, trap speed is a much better measure of engine performance than elapsed time.

 

How can they manipulate the dyno? arent all the values a constant?

 

Well before this gets closed I want to get my two cents in on it again.

First off, Shiv. Guys don't be fooled by his non-sense. Anyone that reads what he is writing about us and 1/4 mile racing could easily be fooled into thinking that is ALL we do. Are we best known for drag racing? SURE! Do we get constant coverage of our cars, customer cars and events we attend drag racing? SURE! The reason is we build VERY powerful and reliable 4g63 engines. We can't win if the car doesn't stay together. To listen to the nonsense Shiv is spreading you would think we load our EVO in the trailer, take it to the track, make a run, blow it up, have our crew rebuild it, make another pass etc., etc. This is nonsense.

I don't even work on and rebuild my full tube chassis 4g63 race car at the track. Anyone that has seen me there can back that up. Hell, if I have to work on it I load up and go home. The track is for racing and hanging out not working on the car, that is for the shop.

Alot of you have also got to realize that we have been doing this same engine for 15 years. This is Shiv's first real year. We didn't start out with trailers and drag cars. We started out pouning the crap out of the car on the 30 mile drive to work everyday testing parts you put on the night before at 3 am. Then we beat the crap out of them coming home. Road racers? Autocrossers? We have helped TONS of them. Ever hear of Dennis Grant? Buschur Racing sponsored SCCA National Champion, drives a '95 AWD Eagle Talon, 4g63 of course.

I have explained this before and will try again. The drag strip is the BEST place to get a number the average guy can relate to. There are 1,000's of drag strips across the country open anywhere from 1-5 nights a week. $10 will get you into most and you can have a try or two at seeing what your car will do. Road race courses and autocross events are nearly as easy to find. EVEN if you have access to them there is NO way to compare your cars performance to others unless they run the SAME course on the SAME day. This leaves us with the dragstrip being the easiest way for everyone to compare their cars performance to anothers. We quote drag numbers for this reason, not so everyone that owns an EVO goes and drag races it or never turns a corner in a car that is so capable of it.

Get off my butt about implying we only build drag cars, it is complete nonsense. We build fast cars.

Another good suggestion for Shiv and the guys at Z1 is to take them and their EVO's down to the dragstrip and get some times so we can all have a good comparison. Stop crying about "I'm a road racer, not a drag racer." Take your *** out there and shut up.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Is there an Icon for *****slap?

 

I looked up Dennis Grant http://farnorthracing.com/ and he just autocrosses and autocrossing is 50seconds - 1.5 min on the track under 60mph. It's all suspension for that. Have you done any one lap cars? Or speedvision, world challange or any road racing stuff? I am not trying to be a *** just asking a questing because I don't know.

 

No.

On a Dyno Dynamics dyno, there is the ramp rate that is variable. You just have to know from experience where to set it. It will depend on the car's weight, where the torque comes in, the amount of torque, etc...

And every dyno usually uses some sort of correction based on altitude, air temp, barometric pressure, etc... All of that can be fudged.

 

God Bless David Buschur... Hell, I might buy some of his parts just on principle (plus they are proven to WORK)...

Well said. And I come from the autocross/road course camp.

 

When your dyno sheets look clean and smooth A/F,TQ and HP then you have arrived as a tuner.

 

newer Dyno jet dynometer control boxes come with a black box which measures wet bulb and dry bulb humidity, barometric pressure and temperature, so you can't fudge the SAE corrected numbers. others sure...

Then again I guess someone could light a fire under the control box to fool it into thinking you made 300whp in a 250 degree inferno. that would probably yield a nice 400whp SAE corrected value.

Then again anything can be fudged. anything. you all need to go drive your cars more and stop wasting time bickering...

 

I measure success in terms of actual performance on the street or track, not by how smooth a dyno sheet is. Come on guys, we aren't Supra owners, here!

Josh <- never once dynoed my car, but it does pretty damn well.