Instead of thinking of them, you should try doing them. (just kidding )

 

Your ablsulty right!!!, Now thow I don't have enough time to

 

ONE of two great posts on this thread so far.

 

AND here is the second.
I can understand these points because we are in the same boat. With basically 20 minutes of city driving to get to work in the morning. When i go to the track with either of my turbo vehicles, I will put all my effort for the best possible time. I dont go down there to see what can be done at mediocre boost levels.
I concern myself mainly with consistent trap speed rather than ET though.
Agian depending on many real world factors like track conditions, weather and such.
I would LOVE to see SHIV and DAVID at the track.
You put the car through just as much stress at the track as you would constant hard downshifts and WOT accelerations at a closed road course.

 

Priceless

 

Dave - I totally understand and agree with what you are saying. I actually was not aware you guys had much involvement outside the realm of drag in terms of out and out competition cars - good to know. I do know a hell of a lot of people whose cars we have built and worled on over the years who have used your parts, and each car has performed well and lasted, so that says alot right there.

Dyno results are anything but unbiased, but like anything else, it all depends who is doing it. In many instances, they are simply another marketing angle, and not a be all and end of indicator of performance.

 

I'll be the first to admit that a Dyno is not perfect predictor of performance or power and can be fudged. Drag racing is a good proving ground for engine tuning. Just look at Keith Black’s success with Porsche endurance engines. The testing for drag racing is quick, with very clear results. I test systems all day at work rarely do I have the luxury of that type of easy clear cut testing procedure. But timeslips alone don’t tell me what I would like to know about engine mods.

What does trap speed tell you about drivability, spool up etc? Trap speed is a good predictor of peak power and can indicate the power around the torque and hp peaks, but shows little else. I also need to know a lot about the run to predict horsepower since the time & trap itself is of no use to me since I don’t drag race anymore. And just won’t drag my Evo.

Dynos have their issues and are far from infallible. But I would accept a well run dyno chart as a good predictor of performance and brake horsepower. Fudged dyno sheets are relatively easy to spot.

What I like to see on a dyno chart

1. Torque and power on the same scale.
2. The chart origin starts at 0 hp, torque and 0 rpm.
3. Conditions of the test noted
4. SAE corrected numbers used
5. Dyno type noted.
6. Baseline run and conditions included.

Dynos overemphasize steady state low speed, high load situations that just do not occur very often on the track or street. Cooling is different also. But the general shape of the torque and power curve can tell you a lot about the flexibility of an engine.

Shiv tested many Evos on his dyno and got very repeatable results. The ones that I saw were all within 1.5% on the same car between runs. That is good testing. His numbers are lower off his dyno than the common US dyno, but so what. You may not agree with his tuning and there is room in the world for many tuners and approaches. But his dyno work is very good.

Dave makes fast 4G63’s no doubt. But I have a hard time getting much useful info out of his timeslips using race gas or 94 Octane. I live in California and can get only 91 or ultra expensive 104. In my autox class I need a cat also. Dave knows his 4G63’s and is very straight forward, I appreciate that.

 

Since the dyno roller does not weigh what your car weighs, dyno plots are not a good representation of turbo spool, either. And the dyno dynamics dyno uses this ramp rate thing. The only real spoolup test is a boost, RPM, mph, and time datalog on the street.

 

Good to see my comments were well taken.

Someone asked about road race cars we have been involved with or built. There have been many customers over the years. Nobody racing professionally. The guys that have come our way for help have been like most of you "road racers" that do open track days at the Corvetter, BMW or Porsche club events. Point was that we have done MANY of these cars and we have honestly never had anything we built blow up from the continued use. Hell, I just thought of a good example. Dan from Mach V left his car here a few years ago. We did a bunch of work to it for him, it is the white Talon you see in his ads. He road raced a bunch of track events with it, ended up selling it to an employee still in one piece a couple of years after having us do the car for him.

Alot of you don't know this but my father and I DROVE my 1991 AWD Talon (4g63 of course) from Ohio to Nevada NON STOP, never shutting the car off. We left after work one day to go and compete in the Silver State Classic. This is a 90 mile open road race from Hiko to Lund Nevada. We were one of the very few cars there that drove in and we were by far the one that drove the furthest. We ran the race, placed 3rd and then drove NON stop back. My dad got a ticket for 110 mph in Utah, he had been driving like that for hours.

Also, concerning the high boost and race gas used at the track. No doubt when we take one of our RACE cars to the track we do that. Hell 40 psi isn't unheard of, neither is 10,000 rpm and we run the highest octane fuel we can find. When we take the EVO though it is just as we advertise it is. You can look at our staged upgrades and see how the car was run on what gas and what boost. We COULD be lieing, this is true, fact is though if we were our parts sales would die off and so would we. You can't make claims of 12.4's on pump gas or 12.0's for that matter and then never have a single customer duplicate them. That is bad business and we aren't know for BS'ing. Al recently tuned one of our Stage 4 cars, the guy ran 11.9 at 119 mph. This is 2 more MPH than we have ever un in our own car. This says something.

Also there was a comment about someone needing a cat to compete in his class. We prefer to and try to sell every system that leaves here with a cat in it. The EPA is really cracking down on the entire "offroad" issue. We were actually recently investigated and I ended up hiring a lawyer to compile the information for us. We have great flowing 3" highflow cats for the EVo's.

Thanks again for reading,

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

David,
great post, very informative. to be honest with you, i came from the subaru world and the only reason i heard about you is from hanging with KC which has your mods on his WRX wagon. to all of you that don't know KC, he is currently one of the top autoxers in the country and he won the mazda challange and competed in the national. he is constantly kicking *** at the auto x league and his entire power mods are from David.

just trying to set the record straight about Buschur being a drag only tuner.

 

Being a vendor myself (not in this forum yet, soon) i have a tremendous respect for David Buschur and his company of well trained and informative personel. Since my 1rst gen i have used their products. Some vendors in general wish they can have the succes this company has had. I wish them more luck everyday and still use their products when i can.
NOTE:This in no way is putting anyone down just that i would love to be able to have the track record david has and maybe one day after my own hard work we will.

 

The quintessential American open road experience - I love this part of your post. Two-Lane Blacktop with 4g63.

Anyway, I think Buschur stuff is neat and certainly have no doubts about reliability. At the same time there is also room for different approaches. In built-up areas running a cat is a reality and IMO it changes the approach to tuning where electronics probably become more important to overcoming limitations of running smog equipment and meeting smog tests. Also California is known for a certain car esthetic - stuff needs to look a certain way - that's part of it and people are willing to pay for the jewellery.

Buschur and Vishnu both do neat stuff and Al, despite himself, has made it by being on the title of this thread .

 

mr.dave ask dan my dully runs 40 pounds of boost.

 

Couldn't agree more !!!!!!!!

And add to the fact that not only do I drive my 11.505 second Evo every day; I take it to the grocery store; I drive it to work; I drive it in the snow and its my only car

I made it not to be a drag car - but becuase I really crave a well balanced 4 door car with motorcycle like speed

Drag racing is only A way to see how much power you have

There are other ways - however - one thing is sure - I have not seen or heard of ONE fast Vishnu WRX or EVO to date

 

I'd just be happy to know how Buschur's Stage 2 upgrade consisting of

BR EVO VIII MAF PIPE KIT
BR EVO VIII BATTERY KIT
BR EVO VIII UPPER I/C PIPE KIT

gives a 60+whp gain (343whp on the dyno sheet they posted) at the same 19psi boost level as their Stage 1 kit which shows 284whp on the dyno sheet posted for that.

Heck they claim "you should be at 300whp at Stage 1" even though their dyno shows 284whp. So give them 300whp. That's still 43whp short of Stage 2's dyno which shows 343whp with (supposedly) just those three upgrades.



Seriously - read this page then click the link at the bottom to read Stage 2 and tell me what I'm missing:
http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO_Stage1.html


Also, personally, I hate when modders tune for 94 Octane with 75% of us can't get either due to state restriction or simply location/convenience. I wish they'd tune for 91 Cali gas so I can have a pleasant surprise when my 93 octane car runs even better numbers on a dyno, not tuned for 94 and then those of you in CA/AZ/etc with your 91 Cali octane have problems.

Come on, really now.


I'm looking over Vishnu's stage upgrades right now and so far the dyno comparisons are much more believable although it seems pricier to run similar times to the times Buschur claims at each staged level.