I think there is potential and possibly even a need for a member controlled community voice.

I recognize that the "EvoM Guru" tag was originally developed to help address that need, but virtually every guru that I am aware of now has a relationship with one or more vendors. While I respect their knowledge, I feel that in some cases (not all) thier brand loyalties may impact their information. Even if that is happening unintentionally, it does impact the credibility of EvoM Guru's as a whole.

I also think that having people who have a reputation for being reasonably unbiased post about both their good and bad experiences helps bring solid information into the community. One of the challenges though, is that people's opinions and experiences will change over time as their experiences grow and change. Long-term performance and durability of some vendor offerings will not be known for possibly even years. The same is also true of our cars - is it unusual that my modded car has oil presure issues after 38K of hard use? I'm not sure, but I'm also not the first Evo owner to run into this... I think the potential "Truth Squad" members need to remember that we're still working with a fairly limited set of data.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that "the right answer" can be pretty subjective for a question. A humerous example from earlier in this thread was "What's the loudest exhaust?" and the "right" answer was posted as "none". While tyhat might be true with the hood open, wouldn't a short down pipe with a side exit megaphone in front of a front wheel do a better job of getting the sound out from under the car? I haven't tested it, so I don't know. My point is that "right" really depends on goals, and if the goals of the question asker are different from the responder, the "right answer" in the response might not be exactly right. All cars are a huge bundle of compromises, and modding a car is adding more compromises into the mix - While I'm fairly happy with where my car is headed, I know that it's completely wrong for the goals other people may have.

One other point is that a member managed panel of experienced members might be useful for heping newer members sort out the quality of information for those responding to thier posts. While alot of us who are very experienced don't always spend alot of time on the forums, it can be frustrating to provide a quality answer to someone and then see it drowned out in flurry of "do this" posts from people with no hands-on experience or knowledge.

I know that EvoM can be a pretty lonely place when you step outside a given vendor's upgrade path. For me it ended with a mostly wasted trip to a Chicago for a tuning day I had organized and then alot of time on a local dyno learning and working with a knowledgeable local tuner to get my car dialed in. The results have been good, but it wasn't exactly easy. Over the last couple of years I've learned alot about Evo's to add to what I've done with other cars in the past.

Anyway Smoggy, let me know if I can lend a hand.

 

**** jeah, i wanna be president.

 

I personally think the forums could be cleaned up by having an "@sshole squad" with Warrtalon and myself as "Emporer" and "President for Life" (title to alternate monthly) with the ability to slap the living dog$hit out of nobbs when they need it, and not be banned for our actions.

When reading a post on evolutionm anyone with technical knowledge will often times have the first reaction of posting "what are you, a f#$%ing moron?" They usually resist the urge to use profanity, but are not very good at hiding their opinion of the inteligence level displayed in the original post when they explain in vast technical detail why the original post was retarded, and what the correct answer is. Then the post gets deleted and they are reprimanded. This happens enough times and the person with good technical knowledge either:

A. Gets banned or threatened with being banned if they don't stop making the noobs cry.
B. Gets disgusted with the whole thing and stops posting.

I love your idea, but I can't see a really "open" forum ever being allowed on evolutionm. If you don't have the power to tell some one "Shut up you retarded NOBB!" when a nobb jumps in on the thread with his worthless opinion it is just going to lead to frustration.... and the power to yell at the nobbs will never be available here. If we had a private forum that only invited members could post in it would be like mutual ************.... we could sit around and tell each other how smart we are.

The more traffic evolutionm gets the more they make from advertising, so the more new people the site attracts (no matter how F'ing retarded) the better for the site financially. Also, Ignorant nobbs buy more "usless bling" type of parts from vendors. Simple truth.

As a mod I have virtually no power (no ability to ban people) and I would get my own self banned if I DID have ban powers, because I would be banning disruptive, useless people in epic numbers, and the perception is that this would result in a drop in trafic, and thus a drop in revenue. My opinion is that it may slow down the expansion of evom, but the quality of posts would rise enough that people would be proud to be members here. I post on other forums, but I never mention being on evom on those forums.... it is almost as bad as telling someone you are on AOL! I suspect that the guru's don't post all that much because they are just as disgusted with retarded posts as Warrtalon, but are just not as vocal about it. Being proclaimed Guru here is like being proclaimed "King of the 'Tards!" Sure you are King, but look at your associates!

If I get my mod status revoked for saying these things so be it. I don't think the ability to move a post from one forum to another is all that impressive, and my solution to 90% of the complaints I get would be to tell the person complaining not to be such a baby(not allowed because it makes nobbs cry), and the other 10% would result in a ban (not in my power) so I can't really do much to improve the forums.

Later,

Keith

 

this is good too.

 

I don't think newbies are that bad, everybody was a newbie at some time. I have two "rules" as a suggestion:

1) Mods should move newbie questions to the "EvoM Newbie" forum, and let the original poster know (in a firendly manner) that would be the right place to ask the question.

2) Anybody posting in the newbie forum in a way that's derogatory to newbies, gets banned from posting in that forum.

That way those of us who don't mind helping the less experienced can do so, and those that don't want to be bothered, won't be bothered. It will give newbies a place to ask questions where they don't have to be scared of getting called offensive names, and thus help to continue grow EvoM with new members. Lastly, if the question really is idiotic to the point that nobody wants to deal with it, then there likely won't be any responses - shouldn't this make everybody happy?

 

is it tha fact that evom doesn't have a fantastic faq? i mean cuz lotsof hte solutions that are being suggested are of the faq nature through various stickies and links to old threads. a big problem is threads being created carelessly and needlessly... so group effort for that!

and i think the mods somehow took over the thread and are trying to solve their own problem hehehe, totally fine.

a personal pet peeve of mine is when vendors make a thread and the title is the next bestest thing in the world and the vendor then feels the need to make sure everyone knows that they must buy this bestest thing in the world because it's bester than any other thing ever. cuz of course every vendor thinks their own stuff is the besterest... i think this is what smogg started this squad for right?

 

This is EXACTLY what this site needs. It's the only thing missing that keeps it from becoming the end all site for Evo's.

The current Water/Alcohol injection thread is a great example of what needs to be saved and cleaned up. PLUS it illustrates why newbies cant be excluded from the advanced tech section. People like Richard and SaabTuner would be unable to contribute to the discussion since they have no interest in Evo's, but they definitely can help with the application of WI/AI.

Regarding the tech articles, they should be something along the lines of Sport Compact Car Magazines "Suck, Squish, Bang, Blow" articles or "How to mod your car for dummies" book by David... V? I cant remember, but its a good book.

When I first became interested, REALLY interested, in cars, I went through and bought every issue of SCC that had a SSBB article (now half are online ) because it was a quick, down and dirty on a specific part of your car. Since I had neither the time or money to attend UTI to get this info, it really helped me out in understanding things to a basic level.

Summary of the above rambling: I agree that EvoM needs their own tech articles that "break it down" for everyone. Like an beginning/intermediate/advanced guide to each topic and a forum to allow REAL discussion on these topics.

Terry S

Edit: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=167970 is another good thread that could be easily converted into another tech article.

 

One must wonder...

... what prompted the idea to start a "truth squad"?

What singular bad experience did smogrunner have that gave him cause tp feel the need to come up with this idea and present it to the masses?

I think that is an issue that needs resolving with whomever this experience was shared with before anyone tries to start a "revolution".

I applaud the out of the box thinking and having every good intention for the establishment of this "group", but is it really necessary?

I think having an independent "panel" of unbiased forum members who can offer contexutually fact based and independent opinions is a good thing, not only to limit unnecessary postings by new members (I don't much like the word newbies), but to offer subjective opinions into otherwise heated discussions, however, I feel that there cannot be a club, group, "squad", nor any other secular aspect to the selection process, and that this entire idea is the basis for the inherent need for "moderators".

This is next to impossible to accomplish and to meet the needs of everyone to whom this will pertain to, but attmepting to segregate any members of the forum (aside from the vendor/non-vendor classification) is counterproductive.

In all honesty, this forum is, or should be, a fairly small part of the majority of our daily lives, and shouldn't be taken so seriously as to try to start up a "local government" type of feeling. Nothing on the forums should ever be taken so seriously as to give anyone any reason not to continue to post nor to feel like their opinions and questions are invalid in anyway. Inappropriate for a certain forum or if the issue has already been covered, yes, but the idea to offer exclusivity to a "higher" group of forum members is a little archaic, if you can excuse my frankness.

Call it feeling left out, or jealousy, or view my opinions as unimportant to this discussion if you want, because we are not yet a forum sponsor (which we hope to finalize within the next week) or because I work for a manufacturer/tuner, but consider this....

.... have things really gotten SO bad on the forum that individuals can't just let the occasional bickering and "newbie type posts" go and move on?

Why does everyone get so worked up over such inconsequential things that should really have no bearing on our daily lives?

Just my opinion!

 

Yes, things HAVE gotten that bad. There is no "occasional" bickering or "newbie-type posts." To the contrary, those are the most prominent threads seen nowadays, which is causing a downward spiral that includes the devolving of intelligent conversation and lack of participation from actual gurus.

Why do we get worked up? Because we care...we care about ourselves, the forum, and the people who own Evos that might get taken for a ride. As a vendor, I'm surprised that you say this forum should have no bearing on our daily lives. Doesn't your business benefit from people buying your products? I would think this sort of thing would have a major bearing on your daily life, so I'm surprised by that question.

Anyway, this isn't about a revolution. This is about taking control of a downward spiral and turning it into a continually improving/expanding forum where information is easily gleaned and factually-based with minimal confrontation, no vendor interference, and full support of the community.

 

Usually when i search for something and find a thread that is dealing with what I seached for, I look at how well they type the information. Usually the more knowledgeable type better and I read what they have to say. I also look that their status from time to time and find the "red" writing under their username actually makes me believe them more. Ex: Guru. or something like that. So i think this would be beneficiary for new users or people that do not know the information- like me . So I give this a big .

As I am not so knowledgeable with the technical side, I could help out on the collision and refinishing since that is what I am doing.

 

Ok, just hear me out before you get all worked up! (this is exactly what I'm refering to)

Please explain what downward spiral you're talking about and how far down this spiral things have gone from where they were before the idea to do this was started.

The "lack" of participation from any "gurus" is not necessarily attributable to any given postings good or bad, unless you have some sort of evidence to that effect otherwise, so if you're looking to give "guru" status or something similar to this new group of members, I just don't see why.

If any individual can't take what they read with a grain of salt and understand thet everyone out there IS going to have different levels of experience and knowledge, then they need to take a step back and reevaluate why they are here and why they are getting so worked up over something they should be indifferent to despite their care for what it is that should really garner their attention.

Why waste your time getting worked up and wasting your energy responding to something if you're going to get physically (apparently) upset about it?

Yes, a vendor's business is part of their daily lives and how they support their families, but my point is apparently lost in that there is no reason for the bickering and "newbie posts" and unnecessary comments to have any bearing on our lives that cause us to "need" a new group of moderators. Our business is to promote our products, not get excited and bothered by the posts that bother and annoy some other people.

I can see how it's hard to distinguish when someone like myself or David Buschur or anyone else who works for a company or a forum sponsor is posting as a representative of their company or as an individual who also has valid opinions that no necessarily have any bearing on the "official position" of their company, but that doesn't mean that our opinions are invalid.

These negative issues that have sparked the request for a "truth squad" should be trivial in comparison to other events that we should all really be focusing our attention and efforts on.

Your families, your jobs, your own cars, your own other interests.

I think all of us are responsible enough to filter the good from the bad and the useful from the useless. Those who can't filter them and understand that each deserves it's own type of attention and response don't need their own club to try to do so.

And furthermore, as vendors, we ARE part of the community, but because of that, we can't participate?

I'm getting worked up now, so I'll just let this be. You folks do what you would like.

 

I guess I just don't understand or agree with any of your points. Trying to trivialize this board when it is the primary source of information for so many Evo owners whose car is their #1 hobby just pains me. Is this how vendors really look at things? We have endless newbies showing up with their brand new Evo who then go off and get in debt by spending way too much money on less-than-useful mods. My goal is to avoid that by all means possible. I am not a vendor, so maybe that's why I see things differently? I make it a point to ensure that new people understand that they CAN enjoy modding their car WITHOUT spending all of their hard-earned money. If, in the end, they simply prefer to spend more money on the high-dollar items, then that is fine. I just want to make sure they understand all of the alternatives as well as the pros and cons of each. Can you say the same about your motivations to post here?

As for the downward spiral, we are being increasingly bombarded by useless threads asking the same questions over and over in relation to mods that not only have been discussed hundreds of times before, but that are not even RECOMMENDED on the Evo to begin with (e.g. intake/bov). Instead of it lessening as newbies learn by being forced to search, it is INCREASING while the search function becomes less and less useful. In turn, it is causing people like me - who DO have useful info and ARE willing to help - to get increasingly frustrated and less likely to help. I am not a guru and don't want to be tagged as such, but my PM box, my AIM account, and comments made in many threads show that I have provided a SIGNIFICANT amount of knowledgeable help to many, many people. The real gurus like Silver Surfer, chronohunter, and MalibuJack rarely post anymore, and there are other non-gurus like myself who are so fed up, they have no desire to respond anymore. How do I know this? Because we communicate with each other via PM, and have been discussing this very issue for months while the "downward spiral" began taking over...

 

+1

 

Excuse me for being so frank but who the hell are you to question my motives for posting on this forum?

I've been nothing but polite and considerate to every single forum member and have provided what I can only assume has been received as useful information as I have not been told otherwise, so for you to question my motives and reasons for being here and for you to "trivialize" my right to being an enthusiast in comparison to your own says a lot.

If you have something that you would like to discuss with me, personally, I suggest you contact me directly off-forum instead of trying to publicly slander me, my business, or my methods.

I have in no way trivialized the forum nor any of it's members. Quite the contrary in fact. As I mentioned previously, EVERYONE's opinions, questions, and level's of expertise are valid and deserve just as much respect as anyone elses, so my entire point is that we don't need a new group of elitist individual's whose sole purpose (as described by you) is to use "all means possible" to squelch those threads, questions, posts, or forum members that don't suit "their" fancy.

This entire idea is what moderators are for.

That's my point.

 

Your intentions are admirable, but that is just life. The Evo is a fad car for a lot of people. It is the IN thing to have because it is new and on the cover of a lot of magazines. There are going to be people like that no matter what you or we or whoever does. The types with more money then brains, or those that are to be taken advantage of. I'm all for cutting down on the garbage posts, maybe do away with Evo General all together. Have a newb forum and an advanced forum, how to's, etc. More moderation in general would be great. But there will always be the people who are going to dump thousands into a car with no real tune, blow their **** up and then come on here and say X product sucks, or Y shop robbed me. There's nothing a truth squad is going to be able to do for those types. They'll just sell their car and move on to something else.