NEW FP GREEN, setup doesn't produce expected power!!!
This reminds me of my first EVO and all the problems I had to deal with. Did you have a baseline dyno run before you started with the mods? If you did not, there is no way you can tell what really went on. Your car might have been very weak before the modifications began.
Your compression numbers are a bit low. Do you have blowby? My first EVO was just a weak car and could not take timing advance very well at all. I made the mistake of starting on mods before understanding what I was working with. I wish I had started with a baseline dyno run. I also wish I had not rushed to get the car modified or "tuned".
I was among the first people to get one of Al's famous road tunes and dynoflash. The results were a lot less satisfactory than I would have hoped. Basically I dynoflushed $600 down the toilet and ended up with a de-tuned car. Al blamed bad gas for it and washed his hands off my car.
That was only the beginning of my woes... I then fell for the bull$hit line of the guy at Boost Solutions. Let's just say that was one huge mess. I finally got the car somewhat sorted out and making decent (not great) power by going
with XEDE and the great work of Andrew at Dyno4mance.
For what it's worth, my advise is to stop spending money and time on the car. I would try to put it back to stock and sell the after market bits. A reliable tuner car probably get the best power that you stock car can make. You could start from there again, but I would not do it. If I wanted to start spending money to get mad power from a car, I'd try another car. It might seem like too expensive, etc. But in reality, starting out with a good, powerful stock car will be the best, easiest and cheapest way to go.
Just my $.02
Your compression numbers are a bit low. Do you have blowby? My first EVO was just a weak car and could not take timing advance very well at all. I made the mistake of starting on mods before understanding what I was working with. I wish I had started with a baseline dyno run. I also wish I had not rushed to get the car modified or "tuned".
I was among the first people to get one of Al's famous road tunes and dynoflash. The results were a lot less satisfactory than I would have hoped. Basically I dynoflushed $600 down the toilet and ended up with a de-tuned car. Al blamed bad gas for it and washed his hands off my car.
That was only the beginning of my woes... I then fell for the bull$hit line of the guy at Boost Solutions. Let's just say that was one huge mess. I finally got the car somewhat sorted out and making decent (not great) power by going
with XEDE and the great work of Andrew at Dyno4mance.
For what it's worth, my advise is to stop spending money and time on the car. I would try to put it back to stock and sell the after market bits. A reliable tuner car probably get the best power that you stock car can make. You could start from there again, but I would not do it. If I wanted to start spending money to get mad power from a car, I'd try another car. It might seem like too expensive, etc. But in reality, starting out with a good, powerful stock car will be the best, easiest and cheapest way to go.
Just my $.02
I don't know what the shop used to adjust the fuel and timing. I don't think its the turbo but at this point it can be anything.
Those compression #s are way on the low side. Limit is 138 psi. Your deltas are ok as that limit is 14 psi. I'd add a thimble of oil down the spark plug hole and recheck. If the #s go up, it is in the rings, else it is in through the valve train.
Even still, being that low on compression wouldn't equate to the #s being that far off.
Does the car feel like it is pulling hard? Maybe the dyno is out on calibration.
Even still, being that low on compression wouldn't equate to the #s being that far off.
Does the car feel like it is pulling hard? Maybe the dyno is out on calibration.
Andy at Speed Element also tuned my 2006 EVO IX MR with a full race header, full exhaust, HKS carbon muffler, and cat delete pipe, 720 cc denso's, Cooling mist akly, HKS DLI II, o2, stock turbo at 29 psi, ARC intake, stock ECU, and got 325 awhp on their dyno. Andy has tuned more EVO's than he can probably count by now. I have to think there is something else wrong (not the tuner) with your EVO.
Good luck with finding what's not right... If you are in San Fran, you might want to have the folks at Works take a look. You never know, but just having another opinion might not be a bad thing. ...kind of like getting a second opinion from a doctor.
Have you considered that the EVO Green might be bad? Just wondering if you tuned prior to installing the Green. Might want to think about putting the stock turbo back on then tune again. If you’re getting good numbers with the stock turbo then you can probably bet something is wrong with the Green. I am no expert; just an enthusiast, but this seems like a logical step to me.
On several times Andy has stayed very late into the night to get customers cars right; including mine. My EVO and I have been in Bangkok, Thailand since March... Maybe I am just lucky, but I haven't had any issues since having my EVO tuned in February at Speed Element. Since coming to Thailand only changed the spark plugs, filter, and oil at the HKS Thailand shop.
+1 for Speed Element!
Sawadee krap,
Jason
Good luck with finding what's not right... If you are in San Fran, you might want to have the folks at Works take a look. You never know, but just having another opinion might not be a bad thing. ...kind of like getting a second opinion from a doctor.
Have you considered that the EVO Green might be bad? Just wondering if you tuned prior to installing the Green. Might want to think about putting the stock turbo back on then tune again. If you’re getting good numbers with the stock turbo then you can probably bet something is wrong with the Green. I am no expert; just an enthusiast, but this seems like a logical step to me.
On several times Andy has stayed very late into the night to get customers cars right; including mine. My EVO and I have been in Bangkok, Thailand since March... Maybe I am just lucky, but I haven't had any issues since having my EVO tuned in February at Speed Element. Since coming to Thailand only changed the spark plugs, filter, and oil at the HKS Thailand shop.
+1 for Speed Element!
Sawadee krap,
Jason
Jason,
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and your package you sent us from Thailand. I am glad to hear your car is running well.
Bobrick (Alex) and company (posters),
This situation is one of the worst scenarios I come across as a tuner. A customer spends thousands of dollars modifying their car and the result is not what is expected.
First and foremost, I am an enthusiast and I know what it is like to be on the other side of this equation, where the setup is just not performing like it should.
So, even though none of the components on this car were installed by us, I spent a solid 5 hours working and diagnosing this customers car. 3 to 4 hours of which were spent on the dyno, and another hour was spent performing a compression and boost leak test.
The total amount charged was $150 for a 5 hour dyno / diagnostic session. Standard rate for tuning at any reputable shop is $150 per hour, and $75 per hour for diagnostics.
So from my point of view as a business I've been extremely fair, if not generous, as the problems associated with this car are not my fault. Since I started tuning professionally to date I have custom tuned more than 200 cars ranging from Hondas, Subarus, EVOs, and even Sand Rails. I have tuned EVO's that have run 10's on the stock block, and deep into the 11's on the stock turbo. Cars I've tuned have been featured in D sport and Sport Compact Car on numerous occasions.
But even have said that, there is only so much I can do as a tuner. There are certain aspects of tuning that I will not cross for the sake of printing out a dyno sheet for bragging rights. If a car cannot make power with the tuning specifications I know to be safe and powerful, I will not push it further.
With my basemap, an FP green on an EVO9 with very little effort @ 20 psi will make 300 whp on my dyno. My basemap begins as a detuned version of my developed map from previous FP Green cars I've tuned, so for this car to make 250 whp there is likely a physical problem with the car unrelated to tuning.
For a moment I wondered if the dyno itself was off, because the graph was smooth, and all the other elements were in place. This meant no timing was being pulled, safe AFR, and normal boost for the application.
But we took the car on the road, and it indeed was 250 whp worth of acceleration.
So after, going over the car as extensively as I sensibly could, I loaded up a SAFE MODE type map that could be driven on until whatever problem that's holding this car back could be remedied. This is what I would want if I were a customer. I would not want some map that is rigged and pushed for the sake of it having an "FP Green" when my car is not running correctly in the first place.
Andy
Thanks for the vote of confidence, and your package you sent us from Thailand. I am glad to hear your car is running well.
Bobrick (Alex) and company (posters),
This situation is one of the worst scenarios I come across as a tuner. A customer spends thousands of dollars modifying their car and the result is not what is expected.
First and foremost, I am an enthusiast and I know what it is like to be on the other side of this equation, where the setup is just not performing like it should.
So, even though none of the components on this car were installed by us, I spent a solid 5 hours working and diagnosing this customers car. 3 to 4 hours of which were spent on the dyno, and another hour was spent performing a compression and boost leak test.
The total amount charged was $150 for a 5 hour dyno / diagnostic session. Standard rate for tuning at any reputable shop is $150 per hour, and $75 per hour for diagnostics.
So from my point of view as a business I've been extremely fair, if not generous, as the problems associated with this car are not my fault. Since I started tuning professionally to date I have custom tuned more than 200 cars ranging from Hondas, Subarus, EVOs, and even Sand Rails. I have tuned EVO's that have run 10's on the stock block, and deep into the 11's on the stock turbo. Cars I've tuned have been featured in D sport and Sport Compact Car on numerous occasions.
But even have said that, there is only so much I can do as a tuner. There are certain aspects of tuning that I will not cross for the sake of printing out a dyno sheet for bragging rights. If a car cannot make power with the tuning specifications I know to be safe and powerful, I will not push it further.
With my basemap, an FP green on an EVO9 with very little effort @ 20 psi will make 300 whp on my dyno. My basemap begins as a detuned version of my developed map from previous FP Green cars I've tuned, so for this car to make 250 whp there is likely a physical problem with the car unrelated to tuning.
For a moment I wondered if the dyno itself was off, because the graph was smooth, and all the other elements were in place. This meant no timing was being pulled, safe AFR, and normal boost for the application.
But we took the car on the road, and it indeed was 250 whp worth of acceleration.
So after, going over the car as extensively as I sensibly could, I loaded up a SAFE MODE type map that could be driven on until whatever problem that's holding this car back could be remedied. This is what I would want if I were a customer. I would not want some map that is rigged and pushed for the sake of it having an "FP Green" when my car is not running correctly in the first place.
Andy
I would recommend replacing the sparkplugs and
draining the fuel tank with another brand of 93 octane gasoline.
Also how many counts of knock where present?
I'm sure there had to be some,which then will give
the knock sensor fits and retard the ignition timing.
Later man
draining the fuel tank with another brand of 93 octane gasoline.
Also how many counts of knock where present?
I'm sure there had to be some,which then will give
the knock sensor fits and retard the ignition timing.
Later man
The EVO9 compression specs are different than the EVO8 due to the MIVEC cylinder head.
The specs according to the latest update of AllData follows.
Standard value (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 1,000 kPa (145 psi)
Minimum limit (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 637 kPa (92 psi)
Variation Limit 98 kPa (14 psi)
So, basically this information just adds to the mystery.
While there was no baseline done to the car, Alex did say that w/ a TBE, filter, and stock turbo the car ran somewhere in the 13's with a trap speed of 100 mph.
The specs according to the latest update of AllData follows.
Standard value (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 1,000 kPa (145 psi)
Minimum limit (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 637 kPa (92 psi)
Variation Limit 98 kPa (14 psi)
So, basically this information just adds to the mystery.
While there was no baseline done to the car, Alex did say that w/ a TBE, filter, and stock turbo the car ran somewhere in the 13's with a trap speed of 100 mph.
Andy,
So the car was hitting your normal timing targets without any knock
If its running your base map and AFRs, boost, and timing targets are all in check, yet it is still running 50whp low, then I'd be very puzzled as well. You didnt mention any knock issues so that kind of dispels the theory of a bad tank of gas
So the car was hitting your normal timing targets without any knock
If its running your base map and AFRs, boost, and timing targets are all in check, yet it is still running 50whp low, then I'd be very puzzled as well. You didnt mention any knock issues so that kind of dispels the theory of a bad tank of gas
The EVO9 compression specs are different than the EVO8 due to the MIVEC cylinder head.
The specs according to the latest update of AllData follows.
Standard value (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 1,000 kPa (145 psi)
Minimum limit (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 637 kPa (92 psi)
Variation Limit 98 kPa (14 psi)
So, basically this information just adds to the mystery.
While there was no baseline done to the car, Alex did say that w/ a TBE, filter, and stock turbo the car ran somewhere in the 13's with a trap speed of 100 mph.
The specs according to the latest update of AllData follows.
Standard value (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 1,000 kPa (145 psi)
Minimum limit (at engine speed of 250 r/min) 637 kPa (92 psi)
Variation Limit 98 kPa (14 psi)
So, basically this information just adds to the mystery.
While there was no baseline done to the car, Alex did say that w/ a TBE, filter, and stock turbo the car ran somewhere in the 13's with a trap speed of 100 mph.
- Great driver with slow car
- Average driver with average car
- No so good driver with good car
I'm pretty convinced that one sure way to find out what the issue might be is to put the car back into stock condition making sure everything is put back correctly and everything is in good working order. Then I'd get a baseline dyno reading and data logging. If this shows the car to be in good working order, I might try to install the exhaust, get a good tune and see what it does... From that point on one could start adding modifications judiciously and taking WHP readings and data loggings in a gradual sequence to see the results and take care of issues as they appear.
I don't know much about the EVO IXs, but based on my experience with the EVO VIII, the after market intakes were either very little improvement over stock or outright worthless and cause loss of power and other issues.