Well, yeah, they have cams, but so do 7 other cars. There are 3 total cars with Dynoflash road tune, including the most powerful car by far (3037 w/alky). Then, just comparing the stock turbo'd cars with cams, there are 8, and the 2 Dynoflash cars are 2 of the top 4. Compare that with the X-flashes and the Works P2 flashes. There's no drop-off, and the Dynoflashed cars are right at the top.

 

You and I are a classic example of two people who have the exact opposite opinion of something. Of course, our experiences seem to be totally different, which explains it.

 

First off, thanks to Speedlimit for taking the time to edit and re-open this thread.

Some more observations, and some requests:

1. Looking at the orignal graph (run 004 vs 008), we have:
- comparable boost
- a clear lack of midrange on the original tune
- more peak power on the original tune

Looking at this, it seems fairly obvious that the original tune was off, it also seems quite clear that there was no boost leak whatsoever. If someone could explain to me how you can manage to make great peak hp, but no midrange due to a boost leak, I'm all ears (eyes).

2. Looking at the rest of the graphs ... is ... somewhat confusing, since the same line color is used more than once. Therefore I'd like to request torque, boost, and AFR graphs of runs 002, 004, 008, and 024 (I am assuming that 024 was the final tune).

l8r)

 

People keep forgetting that all the parts were switched between runs, so the retune wasn't the only variable, which makes this all guesswork. That's the only mistake (as stated previously), but was at the request of the owner, not Shiv's "plan" per se...

 

I have a couple simple questions.

What are the symptoms of a boost leak?
Are these symptoms visible in the dyno runs?

Al's primary explanation as to why there is a difference in the graphs is because he claims there was a boost leak. Let's prove or refute this theory.(If Possible)

 

I think we have already proved the boost leak theory to be wrong. There was literally zero boost curve variance between all the road tune runs. There was minimal AFR variance between all the road tune runs. There was no top-end fuel enrichement. There was no premature top-end roll off of power. If there was any type of boost leak, none of this would have been the case. Not to mention that none of the hoseclamps were loose

Shiv

 

I agree, the tune was not the only difference so lets analyze what did change.

The changes were:
1) Upper intercooler pipe with integrated DSM blow off valve was changed back to stock.
2) HKS intake was replaced with the stock air box
3) MBC was removed
4) Car was retuned

Either a combination of or individual change made the power difference.

 

yea and everyone that keeps saying that swapping the parts is a variable is basically saying that all the parts either dont make any (or actually lose) horsepower or, again... the beginning tune was still off.

 

I think the best tuners out there just shut up and let there customers promote there products. Bashing eachother is retarded and only makes both of you look like morons. When we the last time you heard of AMS bashing someone? You dont because people like them are the best and dont have to stoop to this level. I think it sucks that you guys have PERSONAL problems with eachother and you have to throw your customers in the middle of it GROW UP.

 

Exactly my thoughts on this subject and the main reason why I choose not to get into a tit for tat debate in response to these various accusations and assertions contained in this thread

I also have chosen not to bash other tuner's work and products in my forums as of several months ago. I feel that my past participation in such type of activities was a mistake and after going through that kind of thread a few times over the years i finally realized that its just not worth it to get involved in this kind of marketing.

While i am certianly guilty of such antics in past years, for a significant period of time I have refrained from such actions and I am commited to following this tact going forward.

Its hard to keep your mouth shut and not respond and attack back when people are making these kind of attacks against you. However, just ignoring them and going on with your business I think is the more dignified response over rolling up my sleeves and jumping into the mosh pit to see how many of them I can elbow in the mouth.

I am not trying to say i am better than anyone - just trying to say I think I finally "get it" about these Shiv's attacks and realize there is nothing to gain by trading insults with this guy.

 

Hi everyone,

I'm going to ask that we keep on the topic of Road tuning versus Dyno tuning. Side bar discussions concerning vendor relationships are not for this one. Is it possible to compare the approaches with the understanding that not everyone is close to a competent tuner with an AWD dyno?

As I stated earlier, any additional off topic comments will be removed and the poster assigned to answer all the "Why can't I post in the for sale forum" PM from newbies. Thanks.

Speedlimit...

 

This is not true, and rolling your eyes is not only inflammatory, but also an indication of fanboism - that which we have TRIED to remove.

Pointing to the fact that parts were switched has NOTHING to do with saying the parts cause a loss in power. The point is that it is VERY POSSIBLE (if not very LIKELY) that re-installing the stock parts masked whatever existing problem there may have been unrelated to the tune itself. There is no way you can irrevocably point to the "tune" as the problem when Shiv never retuned the car with the original parts. You simply cannot deny this point.

We knows those parts make power. We know when those same parts are changed, they can lead to issues with poor installation, or simply from something coming loose, or a pinhole leak, etc. Shiv said "the clamps were not loose," but we all know that has nothing to do with boost leaks. You can tighten down clamps all day long, but that doesn't mean a leak doesn't open up at full boost.

In order to make the claims being made in this thread, the following would have to have happened first:

1) Immediate pressure test to check for any leaks or anomalies (not done)
2) EcuTek erasure and then reflash with subsequent dyno results (not done)
3) Depending on results from 1 and 2, reinstallation of stock parts along with retune (only thing done)

I've already said Shiv was asked to switch the parts back by the owner, but that doesn't change anything. If Shiv wanted to come online and use this as an opportunity to show prowess over Al's tuning abilities with the IX, he should have removed all doubt instead of posting in such a manner.

 

This is why I just love the internet. Because people just love to argue Regardless of how much the evidence suggests otherwise. I don't expect there to be anything wrong with the parts that were originally on the car. They were installed properly without any leaks as I think we clearly demonstrated/proved by both the dyno results at our shop and that at Gruppe-S. Those parts were removed for no other reason than they were not necessary or wanted by the owner. The upper IC pipe was harmless enough but it could not be retained with the factory airbox (which is clearly superior in both form and function to the open element air intake). That is the extent of the changes. If you think that simple part swap calls into doubt the reason for the previous tune, so be it. That's certainly your perrogative if you want to believe that. All the facts were present. And conflicting data that would suggest otherwise were never disclosed when asked. There's really not much more to this debate. Right now, we're just beating a dead horse.

Al- If you want to participate in this discussion, please do as both Speedlimit and I suggest and please stay on topic. This was a technical discussion at one point in its evolutionary process.

And if you want to receive fair treatment on this forum, I suggest you extend the courtesy to me on your forum. For the last 8 months, I've been asking for run data on Az3ar's car. Data that you said you would provide. As of yesterday, that thread is closed. Could you either:

1) Re-open it and answer my question
or
2) Re-open it and tell me why you changed your mind?
or
3) Shoot me a PM and let me know what's up.

I'd like to put that thread to rest as well. But as with all "case studies", technical questions will be posed. And it's up to the poster to address them.

shiv

 

I going to assume you missed my post on the previous page? Your comments will be deleted to keep the thread on topic. Please post your editing and moderator concerns in the suggestion forum. And do not post in this thread again unless you are the car owner in question or Al, or Shiv or Dave Buschur. Thanks.

Speedlimit...

 

I vote "dyno" http://media.ams-evo8.com/sevo826awhp.wmv